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This is a healthy thing to happen to the Linux browser ecosystem imho. We talk a lot about browser diversity, but on Linux and Windows, it is a lie. You have f

This is a healthy thing to happen to the Linux browser ecosystem imho. We talk a lot about browser diversity, but on Linux and Windows, it is a lie. You have firefox (gecko) and fifty flavors of chromium. Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser, which I'll admit while is a noble effort, lags a bit in the stability and power-user features department. Big reason for that is that it lacks the commercial backing to keep up with the modern web standards rat race. Kagi bringing orion to Linux changes the calculus. It introduces a third commercially incentivized, consumer-grade engine to the platform. Even if you never use orion, you want this to succeed because it forces WebKitGTK upstream to get better, which benefits the entire open source ecosystem. The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. If Kagi can legally and technically solve the widevine integration on a non-standard Linux webkit build, they win. If not, it will be a secondary browser.

JohnFen 9mo ago
> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). Probably true in general. But for me, that's not a sticking point at all. I don't care if a browser supports media playback or not. What I do care about is the ability to enable/disable embedded code execution (JS, at the very least) at a fairly granular level. Does Orion allow for that?
- packetlost 9mo ago
  It's a major sticking point for most people though and a very large blocker for wider Linux desktop adoption.
  - __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
    We like Linux adoption around these parts. But don't we like it because linux doesn't let companies mistreat it's users? If users are unwilling to opt out of that abuse then I think its OK that their migration to Linux remains mildly inconvenient.
    - packetlost 9mo ago
      DRM sucks, but the time to thrash against it is has passed. It's here, it's not going away, and users expect to be able to use their browsers to watch protected content.
      - __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
        Aren't we talking about the fact that it's not here (on Linux), and some people would like it to be? The time to thrash against DRM will be when you can't get hardware that boots kernels which were not approved by your government. What we're doing now is trying to prevent that time from coming at all. Having to watch protected media on a different device is a small price to pay.
      - MarsIronPI 9mo ago
        > DRM sucks, but the time to thrash against it is has passed. Speak for yourself. I avoid any DRMed content. If I pay for it, I'm getting unrestricted access to the files. Or I don't pay for it.
      - pluralmonad 9mo ago
        I've never let Firefox play content requiring DRM. I don't thrash against it, just ignore it.
      - JohnFen 9mo ago
        I like what Firefox does: it allows me to just disallow Widevine entirely, which is what I do. That still allows others who want to use those things to do so. It's the best of both worlds.
        __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
        Odd thing is, plenty of stuff that you think would break without widevine, works without it. Like... if you didn't need it, why did you ask?
      - digiown 9mo ago
        If anything I see mainstream complaints about DRM in games, media, and lesser extent anti-cheat now more than ever, along with all the thrashing of Windows anti-user behavior. It is only natural that they go together. If there is a time to get rid of these, it's the near future.
- idiotsecant 9mo ago
  You are, you recognize, a tiny minority?
  - __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
    Among users generally, or among kernel developers? Because that's the audience you'd have to convince.
  - JohnFen 9mo ago
    Did I not make that clear with "Probably true in general."?
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
jwcooper 9mo ago
> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. If Kagi can legally and technically solve the widevine integration on a non-standard Linux webkit build, they win. If not, it will be a secondary browser for documentation reading only. I'm hopeful that some day Linux will have enough users where the media companies can't ignore them. Hopefully, that day is sooner than later. It's pretty frustrating that peacock (and all xfinity streaming) doesn't work and you can't get 1080p or 4k on most other streaming platforms.
- Fiveplus 9mo ago
  Hmm good point. The issue is also the distinction between widevine L1, i.e hardware-backed DRM and L3 (the software backed one). Correct me if I'm wrong but to stream 4K, studios require a hardware root of trust and a verified media path. They need a guarantee that the video frames are decrypted inside a trusted execution environment and sent directly to the display without the OS kernel or user space being able to read the raw buffer. AFAIK Windows and macOS provide this pipeline at the OS level. OTOH, ChromeOS gets 1080p/4K not because it has massive market share but cause the hardware and boot chain are locked down by the almighty Google. On desktop Linux, where you have root access and can modify the kernel or compositor to inspect memory, there is technically no way to guarantee that secure path to the studios' satisfaction. Am I right in this assumption? Unless the DRM providers change their threat model, which sounds unlikely to me. Or distros start shipping signed and locked-down kernel modules that prevent the user from being root, which is again unacceptable to most (me included), we will likely be capped at 720p for some time now.
  - h4x0rr 9mo ago
    As far as I understand, on the mobile implementation not even the OS can access the buffers. So even with root you can stream L1 content but not screen record it
  - rixthefox 9mo ago
    > Am I right in this assumption? Yes. I tried using Chrome on Linux just to watch movies that I purchased on Youtube at HD/4K and watched as the stream was limited to 240P. IMHO regardless of what Google says in their ToS they have already broken the trust agreement by not providing what I paid for. Regardless of what the studios want, all this does is push me back towards piracy because once again the industry fails to understand that piracy is a accessibility problem, not a financial problem. If I pay for 4K then regardless of where I want to watch that movie it better be in 4K, that's what I paid for. Google hides behind their ToS to get around the fact that they sold me a product then failed to deliver. > ChromeOS gets 1080p/4K not because it has massive market share but cause the hardware and boot chain are locked down by the almighty Google. ChromeOS is based on Gentoo Linux underneath just very stripped down and Googlefied. It's the same BS that Bungee pulled with Destiny 2 and Linux. If you so much as dared to run Destiny 2 on Linux you would be banned. Stadia used Linux but because Google controlled the platform they allowed it to be played there. These are the games they play to make other platforms that aren't MacOS/Windows appear like they are incapable but in reality it's just corporate greed and grift.
knowitnone3 9mo ago
I have to disagree with some of your points. No shade at Orin but WebKitGTK is a volunteer project. Having competition won't push WebKitGTK any faster because I am sure they are going as fast as they can. WebKitGTK already have a good list of features to add because they have other commercial browsers to compare themselves to, it's the speed that they can add them due to resource limitations. BTW, Firefox also runs on Linux. Also, nobody is installing a secondary browser for documentation reading only - what's the point of doing this?
pmontra 9mo ago
> "DRM/widevine [...] is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die" Maybe it's not widevine L1 but Firefox has the widevine plugin enabled on my Debian 13. I don't remember I had to do anything except downloading Firefox from Mozilla and installing it. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm Apparently it's part of Brave too but it's disabled by default https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360023851591-How-do-I-view-DRM-protected-content https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360023851591-How... I expect it to be available on Chrome and I don't expect much from Epiphany.
TacticalCoder 9mo ago
I don't disagree with you about a new browser being a good thing but ... > If not, it will be a secondary browser for documentation reading only. I don't even have sound on my main desktop PC: the one I use the most. The one I do all my "life admin" stuff from (banking, real estate, etc.), all my work emails, all my coding. I think sound works but I haven't bothered to plug in speakers to check (since three years, when I assembled the PC). That's a bit more than documentation reading. There are work environments where even just a sound emitted by a PC is frowned upon. People who aren't into media consumption are not just "reading documentation".
- Fiveplus 9mo ago
  Yeah, that was a bit harsh on my part. I removed that bit, apologies. Had no intention of coming across as crude.
mikae1 9mo ago
> Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser Don't forget about https://falkon.org https://falkon.org. It's a browser I enjoy using. WebExtension support will be big if it lands in Orion though. EDIT: apparently Orion is not open source. Not particularly interested in a closed source browser, TBH. In 2022 they said they plan to open source "when there is merit"[1], whatever that means. No merit yet, it seems. [1] https://orionfeedback.org/d/3882-open-source-the-browser/2 https://orionfeedback.org/d/3882-open-source-the-browser/2
- radlad 9mo ago
  As a Kagi user for years now, I am very interested in a Firefox/Chrome competitor but I will absolutely not use Orion until it is open source.
  - sxg 9mo ago
    Just curious: what browser do you currently use? Firefox, Zen?
    - radlad 9mo ago
      I'm currently using LibreWolf on desktop and Firefox on Android.
  - Gerard0 9mo ago
    This. Super happy with Kagi but won't use until it is open source.
  - radlad 9mo ago
    In case any Kagi product owners come across this, this comment received 30 upvotes, so this seems to be a fairly common sentiment among HN users.
- pluralmonad 9mo ago
  Same for me. Using a proprietary browser is not quite as bad as using a proprietary OS, but it is a distant second. Hopefully they figure out whatever merit they are waiting for...
forgotpwd16 9mo ago
The actual important part is consumer-grade. Because WebKitGTK itself is already commercially incentivized, developed primarily by Igalia (a quite underrated firm regarding their contributions in open source) who are offering consulting services mainly in embedded-related industries.
satvikpendem 9mo ago
And Ladybird.
WhyNotHugo 9mo ago
> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. On Firefox, you can disable DRM in about:config. Forks such as Librewolf and Tor Browser disable DRM by default.
charcircuit 9mo ago
Browser engine diversity doesn't matter. The only important browser diversity is in the browser itself. Multiple browser engines makes it harder for developers of websites due to divergence of the engines and it makes it harder on engine developers since there are less resources going to the same engine.
- msdz 9mo ago
  On the other hand, that one same engine would then be under near-full control of a single company (Google), with all the disadvantages a monopoly usually brings.
isodev 9mo ago
> commercially incentivized So corp stuff but with devrel? I wouldn’t install a close source browser by a ad-incentivised company like Kagi.
- saagarjha 9mo ago
  How is it ad incentivized?
justinclift 9mo ago
> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. The Orion Alpha is happily playing back Youtube video's at 4k for me out of the box. Confirmed it just now with this one to make sure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFG3Ah-zf18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFG3Ah-zf18
- TingPing 9mo ago
  Youtube with 4k has always worked. Renting commercial videos on Youtube uses DRM.
TingPing 9mo ago
> Even if you never use orion, you want this to succeed because it forces WebKitGTK upstream to get better, which benefits the entire open source ecosystem. I don’t understand this logic. AFAIK Orion is doing downstream work and has not contributed to WebKitGTK. Hopefully that changes but we’ll see.

JohnFen 9mo ago

> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). Probably true in general. But for me, that's not a sticking point at all. I don't care if a browser supports media playback or not. What I do care about is the ability to enable/disable embedded code execution (JS, at the very least) at a fairly granular level. Does Orion allow for that?

packetlost 9mo ago
It's a major sticking point for most people though and a very large blocker for wider Linux desktop adoption.
- __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
  We like Linux adoption around these parts. But don't we like it because linux doesn't let companies mistreat it's users? If users are unwilling to opt out of that abuse then I think its OK that their migration to Linux remains mildly inconvenient.
  - packetlost 9mo ago
    DRM sucks, but the time to thrash against it is has passed. It's here, it's not going away, and users expect to be able to use their browsers to watch protected content.
    - __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
      Aren't we talking about the fact that it's not here (on Linux), and some people would like it to be? The time to thrash against DRM will be when you can't get hardware that boots kernels which were not approved by your government. What we're doing now is trying to prevent that time from coming at all. Having to watch protected media on a different device is a small price to pay.
    - MarsIronPI 9mo ago
      > DRM sucks, but the time to thrash against it is has passed. Speak for yourself. I avoid any DRMed content. If I pay for it, I'm getting unrestricted access to the files. Or I don't pay for it.
    - pluralmonad 9mo ago
      I've never let Firefox play content requiring DRM. I don't thrash against it, just ignore it.
    - JohnFen 9mo ago
      I like what Firefox does: it allows me to just disallow Widevine entirely, which is what I do. That still allows others who want to use those things to do so. It's the best of both worlds.
      - __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
        Odd thing is, plenty of stuff that you think would break without widevine, works without it. Like... if you didn't need it, why did you ask?
    - digiown 9mo ago
      If anything I see mainstream complaints about DRM in games, media, and lesser extent anti-cheat now more than ever, along with all the thrashing of Windows anti-user behavior. It is only natural that they go together. If there is a time to get rid of these, it's the near future.
idiotsecant 9mo ago
You are, you recognize, a tiny minority?
- __MatrixMan__ 9mo ago
  Among users generally, or among kernel developers? Because that's the audience you'd have to convince.
- JohnFen 9mo ago
  Did I not make that clear with "Probably true in general."?
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

jwcooper 9mo ago

> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. If Kagi can legally and technically solve the widevine integration on a non-standard Linux webkit build, they win. If not, it will be a secondary browser for documentation reading only. I'm hopeful that some day Linux will have enough users where the media companies can't ignore them. Hopefully, that day is sooner than later. It's pretty frustrating that peacock (and all xfinity streaming) doesn't work and you can't get 1080p or 4k on most other streaming platforms.

Fiveplus 9mo ago
Hmm good point. The issue is also the distinction between widevine L1, i.e hardware-backed DRM and L3 (the software backed one). Correct me if I'm wrong but to stream 4K, studios require a hardware root of trust and a verified media path. They need a guarantee that the video frames are decrypted inside a trusted execution environment and sent directly to the display without the OS kernel or user space being able to read the raw buffer. AFAIK Windows and macOS provide this pipeline at the OS level. OTOH, ChromeOS gets 1080p/4K not because it has massive market share but cause the hardware and boot chain are locked down by the almighty Google. On desktop Linux, where you have root access and can modify the kernel or compositor to inspect memory, there is technically no way to guarantee that secure path to the studios' satisfaction. Am I right in this assumption? Unless the DRM providers change their threat model, which sounds unlikely to me. Or distros start shipping signed and locked-down kernel modules that prevent the user from being root, which is again unacceptable to most (me included), we will likely be capped at 720p for some time now.
- h4x0rr 9mo ago
  As far as I understand, on the mobile implementation not even the OS can access the buffers. So even with root you can stream L1 content but not screen record it
- rixthefox 9mo ago
  > Am I right in this assumption? Yes. I tried using Chrome on Linux just to watch movies that I purchased on Youtube at HD/4K and watched as the stream was limited to 240P. IMHO regardless of what Google says in their ToS they have already broken the trust agreement by not providing what I paid for. Regardless of what the studios want, all this does is push me back towards piracy because once again the industry fails to understand that piracy is a accessibility problem, not a financial problem. If I pay for 4K then regardless of where I want to watch that movie it better be in 4K, that's what I paid for. Google hides behind their ToS to get around the fact that they sold me a product then failed to deliver. > ChromeOS gets 1080p/4K not because it has massive market share but cause the hardware and boot chain are locked down by the almighty Google. ChromeOS is based on Gentoo Linux underneath just very stripped down and Googlefied. It's the same BS that Bungee pulled with Destiny 2 and Linux. If you so much as dared to run Destiny 2 on Linux you would be banned. Stadia used Linux but because Google controlled the platform they allowed it to be played there. These are the games they play to make other platforms that aren't MacOS/Windows appear like they are incapable but in reality it's just corporate greed and grift.

knowitnone3 9mo ago

I have to disagree with some of your points. No shade at Orin but WebKitGTK is a volunteer project. Having competition won't push WebKitGTK any faster because I am sure they are going as fast as they can. WebKitGTK already have a good list of features to add because they have other commercial browsers to compare themselves to, it's the speed that they can add them due to resource limitations. BTW, Firefox also runs on Linux. Also, nobody is installing a secondary browser for documentation reading only - what's the point of doing this?

pmontra 9mo ago

> "DRM/widevine [...] is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die" Maybe it's not widevine L1 but Firefox has the widevine plugin enabled on my Debian 13. I don't remember I had to do anything except downloading Firefox from Mozilla and installing it. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm Apparently it's part of Brave too but it's disabled by default https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360023851591-How-do-I-view-DRM-protected-content https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360023851591-How... I expect it to be available on Chrome and I don't expect much from Epiphany.

TacticalCoder 9mo ago

I don't disagree with you about a new browser being a good thing but ... > If not, it will be a secondary browser for documentation reading only. I don't even have sound on my main desktop PC: the one I use the most. The one I do all my "life admin" stuff from (banking, real estate, etc.), all my work emails, all my coding. I think sound works but I haven't bothered to plug in speakers to check (since three years, when I assembled the PC). That's a bit more than documentation reading. There are work environments where even just a sound emitted by a PC is frowned upon. People who aren't into media consumption are not just "reading documentation".

Fiveplus 9mo ago
Yeah, that was a bit harsh on my part. I removed that bit, apologies. Had no intention of coming across as crude.

mikae1 9mo ago

> Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser Don't forget about https://falkon.org https://falkon.org. It's a browser I enjoy using. WebExtension support will be big if it lands in Orion though. EDIT: apparently Orion is not open source. Not particularly interested in a closed source browser, TBH. In 2022 they said they plan to open source "when there is merit"[1], whatever that means. No merit yet, it seems. [1] https://orionfeedback.org/d/3882-open-source-the-browser/2 https://orionfeedback.org/d/3882-open-source-the-browser/2

radlad 9mo ago
As a Kagi user for years now, I am very interested in a Firefox/Chrome competitor but I will absolutely not use Orion until it is open source.
- sxg 9mo ago
  Just curious: what browser do you currently use? Firefox, Zen?
  - radlad 9mo ago
    I'm currently using LibreWolf on desktop and Firefox on Android.
- Gerard0 9mo ago
  This. Super happy with Kagi but won't use until it is open source.
- radlad 9mo ago
  In case any Kagi product owners come across this, this comment received 30 upvotes, so this seems to be a fairly common sentiment among HN users.
pluralmonad 9mo ago
Same for me. Using a proprietary browser is not quite as bad as using a proprietary OS, but it is a distant second. Hopefully they figure out whatever merit they are waiting for...

forgotpwd16 9mo ago

The actual important part is consumer-grade. Because WebKitGTK itself is already commercially incentivized, developed primarily by Igalia (a quite underrated firm regarding their contributions in open source) who are offering consulting services mainly in embedded-related industries.

satvikpendem 9mo ago

And Ladybird.

WhyNotHugo 9mo ago

> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. On Firefox, you can disable DRM in about:config. Forks such as Librewolf and Tor Browser disable DRM by default.

charcircuit 9mo ago

Browser engine diversity doesn't matter. The only important browser diversity is in the browser itself. Multiple browser engines makes it harder for developers of websites due to divergence of the engines and it makes it harder on engine developers since there are less resources going to the same engine.

msdz 9mo ago
On the other hand, that one same engine would then be under near-full control of a single company (Google), with all the disadvantages a monopoly usually brings.

isodev 9mo ago

> commercially incentivized So corp stuff but with devrel? I wouldn’t install a close source browser by a ad-incentivised company like Kagi.

saagarjha 9mo ago
How is it ad incentivized?

justinclift 9mo ago

> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. The Orion Alpha is happily playing back Youtube video's at 4k for me out of the box. Confirmed it just now with this one to make sure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFG3Ah-zf18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFG3Ah-zf18

TingPing 9mo ago
Youtube with 4k has always worked. Renting commercial videos on Youtube uses DRM.

TingPing 9mo ago

> Even if you never use orion, you want this to succeed because it forces WebKitGTK upstream to get better, which benefits the entire open source ecosystem. I don’t understand this logic. AFAIK Orion is doing downstream work and has not contributed to WebKitGTK. Hopefully that changes but we’ll see.