6 ms·
A reminder that antizionism is not antisemitism
by artninja1988 9mo ago
A reminder that antizionism is not antisemitism
- iddan 9mo ago[flagged]
- halflife 9mo ago[flagged]
- rowanseymour 9mo agoYes I'm sure if the settlers who forced Amjad Masad's people into refugee camps were a different religion he'd be fine with it.
- soldthat 9mo ago[flagged]
- rowanseymour 9mo agoIt's really not and I don't think it's worth arguing with you but.. Zionism is the establishment of a Jewish majority state.. which requires the expulsion of much of the existing non-Jewish population. That not the same as other countries acknowledging the borders of Palestine.
- soldthat 9mo ago[flagged]
- siltcakes 9mo agoPalestinians are the indigenous people to the land who were ethnically cleansed via Nakba. It's not "nationalism" to allow people to return to the land that was stolen from them.
- Marsymars 9mo agoThe crux of the problem is that there are multiple peoples with reasonably legitimate claims to the same indigeneity.
- siltcakes 9mo ago[flagged]
- throw310822 9mo agoNo there aren't. Where is the legitimacy if Jewish claims to the land? That it says so in their religious texts? Ffs.
- lukan 9mo agoMaybe because most of them were born there and also their parents and grandparents? That is called birthright and the way I see it, it applies to both groups. And the conflict will never be solved (without large scale genocide), if both groups largely negate the other groups rights.
- throw310822 9mo agoYou're right, expelling Israelis from Palestine would be a crime exactly as it's been a crime expelling Palestinians. While I believe that Jews had no right in the first place to immigrate there, this doesn't change the status of their descendants who are born there and whose families are born there. But let's be clear on this: Jews that are not currently in Israel have no right to immigrate there. Jews that are in Israel have no right on any part of the land that isn't already part of Israel proper; and finally, Jews (exactly as much as Palestinians do) have a right to life, property and safety but not necessarily to their own political entity.
- lukan 9mo agoBut what about Palestinians who were born elsewhere? Do they have a right to go back to their ancestors land? To me it seems close to the arguments of the jewish who see themself as native, "just" on a larger timescale. There is no easy solution that I can see. (except letting go of fanatism)
- vkou 9mo agoCitation needed.
- nailer 9mo ago[flagged]
- _menelaus 9mo agoRidiculous. Most of the world has a negative view of Zionism, as they should, and ethnosupremacy in general.
- FunnyUsername 9mo agoThere's nothing supremacist about Zionism, it's just the support of Jewish self-determination. Efforts to twist it into something nefarious are just propaganda with no etymological basis.
- _menelaus 9mo agoThink about what you're saying. Zionism the idea that a particular ethnic group (the Jews) will have the authority to determine what happens in their country (Israel). That is a textbook case of ethnic supremacism. And that's not even mentioning the violent expulsion of the Arabs that this de facto entailed.
- FunnyUsername 9mo agoMost Zionists have a goal of preserving a Jewish majority for pragmatic reasons - history has shown that it's the only way to ensure the safety of Jews. That's not a supremacist ideology at all. Moreover, no country is perfect, and we shouldn't have double standards just for Israel. Can you identify any other Middle Eastern country that compares favorably, in terms of diversity and tolerance of all religions and ethnicities?
- siltcakes 9mo agoZionists aren't indigenous to Palestine and have no right to that land.
- FunnyUsername 9mo agoZionism is a political view; a Zionist can be from anywhere just as a socialist can. Jews are indigenous to Judea though. Others have a right to live in the region too, hence proposals to share the land, such as the partition plan or the 2000 Camp David offer.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- moogly 9mo agoConnecting these two concepts like Netanyahu et. al. are constantly (insincerely) doing, is actually breeding real antisemitism. I wish more people realized this.
- soldthat 9mo ago[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 9mo agoExplanations aren't justifications, nor excuses. Most things happen for reasons.
- soldthat 9mo ago[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 9mo agoWhy are they racist? I assume you're not saying that some people are born racist, and other people are born anti-racist.
- soldthat 9mo ago[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 9mo agoSomeone with a tendency towards racist generalisations might start disliking a particular group due to the zeitgeist identifying "disliking the behaviour of a political entity" with "disliking all members of an ethnic group", though. If they previously didn't hold any such views, then they would go from "not racist" to "racist". (If you disagree with my category boundaries, you can construct your own similar example for your preferred category boundaries.) Just because something's wrong, that doesn't mean it's illogical. A logical conclusion from flawed premises is still logical.
- EtienneDeLyon 9mo agoThat doesn't make sense. Zionism depends on antisemitism, so true antisemites are by definition pro-Zionist.
- FunnyUsername 9mo agoThere are a couple problems with this view: - You could say that antisemites are a cause of Zionism, but that doesn't mean they intentionally support it. Not all antisemites are of the "go back to Palestine" type. - Just as "antisemitism" doesn't actually mean hate of Semetic people, "antizionism" doesn't actually mean opposition to Zionism. Instead it developed into a rather separate hate movement. Many antizionism ostensibly support a 2SS, which would mean they actually support rather than oppose Zionism, but are nonetheless part of the antizionism movement.
- nailer 9mo ago[flagged]
- yndoendo 9mo agoI recommend _Culture in Nazi Germany_ by Michael K Kater. [0] The push for a Zionist state started and accelerated in the 1920s to the end of the 1930s. Most of the Jews that moved from Europe to Palestine, which was part of modern day Israel, were by the Zionists. Reason is because the only jobs at the time were farming so people would have to give up their current triad. Number of these individuals actually supported fascism. Even after WWII the mind set was not that fascism was bad but poorly implemented. That mind set was shared by a number of Germans and Jews that moved to Palestine before Israel became a state. It was not until the late 1960s that younger culture started to shift that mind set to fascism is bad. If you think I am wrong about the summation of the book ... read it. [0] https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300253375/culture-in-nazi-germany/ https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300253375/culture-in-naz...
- nailer 9mo agoAs mentioned, I recommend going directly to the source. The clearest indication of what Zionism is the father of modern Zionism and Israel: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/25282/25282-h/25282-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/25282/25282-h/25282-h.htm It's a hundred pages. If someone hasn't read it, or even a summary, they have little knowledge of Zionism. WW2 was far after the modern return of Jews to Israel. I grew up in a very left leaning, pro terrorism household. I was absolutely wrong about what Zionism was - not a 'God promised me this because I'm special" as I was told but rather "racism means we need a homeland let's all go back to Israel".
- yndoendo 9mo agoHow does having a religious base state prevent bigotry and discrimination? Both are mutually exclusive. In the world, Jews discriminate against Jews, Christians discriminate against Christians, Muslims discriminate Muslims, ... A religious state can only have one variant of religion that is deemed the right variation even though multiple variations exist. The closest thing to a non bigot and discriminating state is one that is not built on religion but accepts other people and allows them to exercise their variation of religion. Earth is the home land of humans not a politically divided territory.
- firen777 9mo ago[flagged]
- lingrush4 9mo ago[flagged]