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I used to always opt out at TSA checkpoints. Then I decided that of all places, the airport makes the most sense to use biometrics. I mean, a human comparing my

I used to always opt out at TSA checkpoints. Then I decided that of all places, the airport makes the most sense to use biometrics. I mean, a human comparing my face to my ID is functionally equivalent. What scares me about TSA using it is that it normalizes its use. Next it's at stadiums. Then Wegmans. If it would stop at airports, then I would be okay with it.

fc417fc802 9mo ago
> a human comparing my face to my ID is functionally equivalent Not at all? A human isn't committing you to long term memory let alone entering a detailed sketch into a centralized database.
- Hnrobert42 9mo ago
  No. TSA deletes the information it captures after 24 hours. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-tsa-protect-all-data-eg-photos-collected-during-testing https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-t...
  - ibejoeb 9mo ago
    Regardless of the fact that they can simply lie to you, it doesn't say that. The question is "Does TSA protect all data (e.g., photos)...?" What does protect mean? The stated common case is that a photo is ephemeral and is removed (from where?) after it is used. Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. But that's just generous reading, anyway. There are so many ambiguities that it's not really worth the trouble to attempt any rigorous analysis of it. "In rare instances TSA will collect and temporarily retain photos and data..." How rare? Doesn't matter: then what happens? "...data collection mode events are limited in time and place..." Damn unrelenting spacetime. "TSA’s facial comparison technologies adhere to DHS and TSA cybersecurity requirements." Restatement of the problem.
    - fc417fc802 9mo ago
      Agreed. Provides no obvious benefit to either me or society at large. Normalizes collection of biometrics. Implementation details not easy to verify - they could be lying or could silently change things later. The entire scheme has a very high abuse potential. Equipment and personnel set up at major ports and their presence normalized. Turnkey authoritarianism at its finest.
    - gs17 9mo ago
      > Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. If we want to be truly generous in interpreting it, the new sample would be deleted and the comparison is done against the photos they have on file from your ID/passport (although, since a foreigner can do it on their first visit to the US, it might just be based on scanning the document you provide). Of course, single-sample-per-person facial recognition is pretty limited, but it's security theater anyways.
      - ibejoeb 9mo ago
        That's too generous because even that document says that there that data is used for other purposes without detailing any of that. There are no timelines. Even when they say "temporary," when is that? Until 2300? Temporarily stored on the device until it's been stored remotely? Temporary until the NN is trained? The cat's out of the bag, anyway. They already have a perfect dataset and surveillance mechanism. But it'd be nice to stop continuing to perfect it.
      - duskdozer 9mo ago
        I think the mistake is assuming they're purely doing a 2d pixel array photo comparison and not a 3d scan. This would also satisfy their statement that they delete the photos, while still being able to store data that could be used to reproduce the photos.
    - danaris 9mo ago
      I just flew from the US to Europe; at each point where I had to get my picture taken, the machine had a label on it that clearly said they would delete my data after 24 hours. (Or after use, I don't remember the precise time frame.) Were they lying? Possibly. But this is not a matter of them trying to use weasel wording to trick you into thinking they're claiming something they're not.
tmerc 9mo ago
Humans forget. The TSA allegedly deletes your photo, but they're quiet about the rest of the data they collected from that photo.

fc417fc802 9mo ago

> a human comparing my face to my ID is functionally equivalent Not at all? A human isn't committing you to long term memory let alone entering a detailed sketch into a centralized database.

Hnrobert42 9mo ago
No. TSA deletes the information it captures after 24 hours. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-tsa-protect-all-data-eg-photos-collected-during-testing https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-t...
- ibejoeb 9mo ago
  Regardless of the fact that they can simply lie to you, it doesn't say that. The question is "Does TSA protect all data (e.g., photos)...?" What does protect mean? The stated common case is that a photo is ephemeral and is removed (from where?) after it is used. Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. But that's just generous reading, anyway. There are so many ambiguities that it's not really worth the trouble to attempt any rigorous analysis of it. "In rare instances TSA will collect and temporarily retain photos and data..." How rare? Doesn't matter: then what happens? "...data collection mode events are limited in time and place..." Damn unrelenting spacetime. "TSA’s facial comparison technologies adhere to DHS and TSA cybersecurity requirements." Restatement of the problem.
  - fc417fc802 9mo ago
    Agreed. Provides no obvious benefit to either me or society at large. Normalizes collection of biometrics. Implementation details not easy to verify - they could be lying or could silently change things later. The entire scheme has a very high abuse potential. Equipment and personnel set up at major ports and their presence normalized. Turnkey authoritarianism at its finest.
  - gs17 9mo ago
    > Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. If we want to be truly generous in interpreting it, the new sample would be deleted and the comparison is done against the photos they have on file from your ID/passport (although, since a foreigner can do it on their first visit to the US, it might just be based on scanning the document you provide). Of course, single-sample-per-person facial recognition is pretty limited, but it's security theater anyways.
    - ibejoeb 9mo ago
      That's too generous because even that document says that there that data is used for other purposes without detailing any of that. There are no timelines. Even when they say "temporary," when is that? Until 2300? Temporarily stored on the device until it's been stored remotely? Temporary until the NN is trained? The cat's out of the bag, anyway. They already have a perfect dataset and surveillance mechanism. But it'd be nice to stop continuing to perfect it.
    - duskdozer 9mo ago
      I think the mistake is assuming they're purely doing a 2d pixel array photo comparison and not a 3d scan. This would also satisfy their statement that they delete the photos, while still being able to store data that could be used to reproduce the photos.
  - danaris 9mo ago
    I just flew from the US to Europe; at each point where I had to get my picture taken, the machine had a label on it that clearly said they would delete my data after 24 hours. (Or after use, I don't remember the precise time frame.) Were they lying? Possibly. But this is not a matter of them trying to use weasel wording to trick you into thinking they're claiming something they're not.

tmerc 9mo ago

Humans forget. The TSA allegedly deletes your photo, but they're quiet about the rest of the data they collected from that photo.