5 ms·

You should learn to vote for UBI?

krainboltgreene 10mo ago
Everyone suggests UBI like this sort of thing is a massive hurricane and we just gotta take it on the chin. Nah man, this stuff isn't happening anywhere else. We can simply say "No, you don't get to ruin the economy for your personal profit."
- falcor84 10mo ago
  Well, here you said it; is it over now?
  - krainboltgreene 10mo ago
    I'm confused, do you not know what "we" means?
    - falcor84 10mo ago
      Yes, I have no idea who's this magical "we" in your "We can simply". To me this seems like a textbook coordination problem leading to a tragedy of the commons- even if you got 99.9% of the world into your "we", the remaining "defectors" would have a massive benefit from using AI to replace human labor.
      - krainboltgreene 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        throwaway290 10mo ago
        the strong interpretation is that you mean we gotta do something. and it's really not "simply" even because "we" needs to include everyone and whoever is a renegade will get more benefit. so if "say" is an euphemism for "do" it seems an obvious question what exactly do we "do". that's another reason why it's not "simply". even if everybody was ready to do something as one, if you think everybody just knows what we should do because it's so obvious you'r mistaken. sure it's asked a bit sarcastic but sarcasm isn't banned right?
        School-Cotton 10mo ago
        No, I have the same question as that other poster. It is not a bad faith question. There are a lot of problems that would be solved immediately if "we" (i.e. all of humanity, or all of the U.S. or some other country) decided collectively to do something: climate change, nuclear weapons proliferation, war, and so on. But that's effectively wishing for magic -- there is no way to get everyone to collectively agree on something, so unless you explain how to cope with that fact, you haven't actually made any progress. Given that I personally don't control humanity as a hive mind, what can I do to fix this problem? You haven't proposed an answer to that.
- bongodongobob 10mo ago
  [dead]
- paul7986 10mo ago
  Indeed we need to revolt against AI and force every other big powerful nation to do the same thing. Yet unfortunately that seems like a big joke until AI has destroyed their society too.
- tomjen3 10mo ago
  Not only can we not just do that (you did not even define what you mean), but China is coming out with models that are good enough for this purpose - and they are, because they are open, everywhere.
Tostino 10mo ago
Agreed, it's one of the only ways forward I can think of while still maintaining markets in some part of the economy...that is, if you care about the human condition at all. Plenty of these tech leaders seem to want to replace humanity though, so this will be an uphill battle.
- SoftTalker 10mo ago
  It's a nice fantasy but completely contrary to human nature.
  - Analemma_ 10mo ago
    What is your alternative, when the price humans can sell their labor at dips below what is necessary for them to survive? All these takes about "UBI will demolish the human spirit" or whatever are just ridiculous when the alternative is "starve to death".
    - ryoshoe 10mo ago
      Just doing nothing isn't great for the "human spirit", but UBI doesn't mean people can't find their own goals to pursue. The idea of something where people are not longer required to work to survive is hard to accept since many people haven't seriously considered how they could meaning outside of their careers
      - hackable_sand 10mo ago
        I could ask every one of my coworkers what they would do and they would have a realistic answer. I don't really have sympathy for people attached to their careers. They did that to themselves.
        serf 10mo ago
        counterpoint : my father had realistic expectations for what he wanted to do post-retirement. what actually happened was that he sat around purposeless because it turns out that the motivation of producing a paycheck or product was actually the reason he did things. He stopped showering, became depressed, and neglected his health. And this isn't an uncommon reaction to the open-ended 'free-form' life post-retirement. Some people very realistically need to have some level of structure imposed on their life or otherwise be taught how to create that structure themselves. I think this will be a very real problem whenever UBI gets closer to reality.
j16sdiz 10mo ago
I can't imagine how it could work internationally, when people can literally migrate between countries and countries ain't sharing resources for free
- esafak 10mo ago
  They can? How many times have you migrated? Try going from the Middle East or Africa to any developed country.
  - npodbielski 10mo ago
    You are joking right? There were handred of thousands of people that did this in last ten years or so to EU.
LogicFailsMe 10mo ago
Funded by an automation tax as proposed by Martin Ford. Not holding my breath on either count. We mustn't upset the 1,000 or so billionaires in this country in any way for they are wise and they are kind and only bad things will happen if we do. But chin up, peasant, each and every one of us can dream of one day being a billionaire as well if only we act as wise and as kind as they do.
- Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago
  > But chin up, peasant, each and every one of us can dream of one day being a billionaire as well if only we act as wise and as kind as they do. (I know this was written satirically) but this is a nice example of doublespeak and I immediately got reminded of it. I wouldn't say that we have reached 1984 level, there is still some decentralization where you can get hosting and then self host from small vps providers as well etc. Not that most people do such things tho. Internet is still heavily centralized but overall, there are still outlets of escape legally and you are able to sometimes even talk to vps provider owners themselves directly in some cases if they are small enough. But still, each year although we get away from 1984 the year, we get near to 1984 the book.
  - LogicFailsMe 10mo ago
    As much as I am pro AI and I really am very pro AI, there is definitely an emperor's new AGI vibe amongst the tech bro and billionaire classes. I can only attribute it to a compulsive need to oversell everything and then deliver 25 to 50%, a state everyone is so used to now that if you try to be honest and make claims that state what you can really deliver, they will assume you can only deliver 25 to 50% of what you are claiming and therefore the guy promising twice as much gets the funding. This makes me happy that I'm nearing retirement but that switch flipping is being delayed by my hourly rate going up for possessing forgotten knowledge. Sigh...
ecshafer 10mo ago
UBI will turn Earth into the Earth of the Expanse. I truly believe it would be absolutely ruinous on man. Our psychology is just not built for that.
- Rumple22Stilk 10mo ago
  The earth of the expanse is 1000 times better than any time in history.
  - ironman1478 10mo ago
    The life of people on earth doesn't seem better than people now. For connected people it seems great, but for the average joe it seemed awful.
    - Rumple22Stilk 9mo ago
      Yes it does. You don't have an accurate understanding of the lives of people on earth now, which is largely constant pain and suffering.
  - ecshafer 10mo ago
    Did you read the expanse? The earth of the expanse is full of crime and destitution. People apply in the tens of thousands for every lottery slot of school or jobs. People just wallow in nothingness. The people fleet earth for mars and the belt just to have a basic sense of purpose. If we are to just have UBI. Have basic sustenance for no effort, while we have unlimited entertainment and porn at our finger tips. It would be a disaster. I would literally we rather have make work programs.
    - Rumple22Stilk 9mo ago
      Yes. I read the expanse. The problem is you don't understand how terrible life on earth is currently for the majority of people, you are coddled.
- acdha 10mo ago
throwway120385 10mo ago
The reality of UBI in the United States is that it's going to go from being something freely given to being something that is a full time job to maintain, and then it will be cut or replaced with services that are specifically designed to be as cheap as possible. Until we're all living in terrafoam, birth-controlled and warehoused until we die.
- joquarky 10mo ago
  Manna keeps coming to mind for me as well. It feels like UBI is (at best) likely to become as complicated and corrupt as our tax system already is.

Everyone suggests UBI like this sort of thing is a massive hurricane and we just gotta take it on the chin. Nah man, this stuff isn't happening anywhere else. We can simply say "No, you don't get to ruin the economy for your personal profit."

falcor84 10mo ago
Well, here you said it; is it over now?
- krainboltgreene 10mo ago
  I'm confused, do you not know what "we" means?
  - falcor84 10mo ago
    Yes, I have no idea who's this magical "we" in your "We can simply". To me this seems like a textbook coordination problem leading to a tragedy of the commons- even if you got 99.9% of the world into your "we", the remaining "defectors" would have a massive benefit from using AI to replace human labor.
    - krainboltgreene 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - throwaway290 10mo ago
        the strong interpretation is that you mean we gotta do something. and it's really not "simply" even because "we" needs to include everyone and whoever is a renegade will get more benefit. so if "say" is an euphemism for "do" it seems an obvious question what exactly do we "do". that's another reason why it's not "simply". even if everybody was ready to do something as one, if you think everybody just knows what we should do because it's so obvious you'r mistaken. sure it's asked a bit sarcastic but sarcasm isn't banned right?
      - School-Cotton 10mo ago
        No, I have the same question as that other poster. It is not a bad faith question. There are a lot of problems that would be solved immediately if "we" (i.e. all of humanity, or all of the U.S. or some other country) decided collectively to do something: climate change, nuclear weapons proliferation, war, and so on. But that's effectively wishing for magic -- there is no way to get everyone to collectively agree on something, so unless you explain how to cope with that fact, you haven't actually made any progress. Given that I personally don't control humanity as a hive mind, what can I do to fix this problem? You haven't proposed an answer to that.
bongodongobob 10mo ago
[dead]
paul7986 10mo ago
Indeed we need to revolt against AI and force every other big powerful nation to do the same thing. Yet unfortunately that seems like a big joke until AI has destroyed their society too.
tomjen3 10mo ago
Not only can we not just do that (you did not even define what you mean), but China is coming out with models that are good enough for this purpose - and they are, because they are open, everywhere.

Tostino 10mo ago

Agreed, it's one of the only ways forward I can think of while still maintaining markets in some part of the economy...that is, if you care about the human condition at all. Plenty of these tech leaders seem to want to replace humanity though, so this will be an uphill battle.

SoftTalker 10mo ago
It's a nice fantasy but completely contrary to human nature.
- Analemma_ 10mo ago
  What is your alternative, when the price humans can sell their labor at dips below what is necessary for them to survive? All these takes about "UBI will demolish the human spirit" or whatever are just ridiculous when the alternative is "starve to death".
  - ryoshoe 10mo ago
    Just doing nothing isn't great for the "human spirit", but UBI doesn't mean people can't find their own goals to pursue. The idea of something where people are not longer required to work to survive is hard to accept since many people haven't seriously considered how they could meaning outside of their careers
    - hackable_sand 10mo ago
      I could ask every one of my coworkers what they would do and they would have a realistic answer. I don't really have sympathy for people attached to their careers. They did that to themselves.
      - serf 10mo ago
        counterpoint : my father had realistic expectations for what he wanted to do post-retirement. what actually happened was that he sat around purposeless because it turns out that the motivation of producing a paycheck or product was actually the reason he did things. He stopped showering, became depressed, and neglected his health. And this isn't an uncommon reaction to the open-ended 'free-form' life post-retirement. Some people very realistically need to have some level of structure imposed on their life or otherwise be taught how to create that structure themselves. I think this will be a very real problem whenever UBI gets closer to reality.

j16sdiz 10mo ago

I can't imagine how it could work internationally, when people can literally migrate between countries and countries ain't sharing resources for free

esafak 10mo ago
They can? How many times have you migrated? Try going from the Middle East or Africa to any developed country.
- npodbielski 10mo ago
  You are joking right? There were handred of thousands of people that did this in last ten years or so to EU.

LogicFailsMe 10mo ago

Funded by an automation tax as proposed by Martin Ford. Not holding my breath on either count. We mustn't upset the 1,000 or so billionaires in this country in any way for they are wise and they are kind and only bad things will happen if we do. But chin up, peasant, each and every one of us can dream of one day being a billionaire as well if only we act as wise and as kind as they do.

Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago
> But chin up, peasant, each and every one of us can dream of one day being a billionaire as well if only we act as wise and as kind as they do. (I know this was written satirically) but this is a nice example of doublespeak and I immediately got reminded of it. I wouldn't say that we have reached 1984 level, there is still some decentralization where you can get hosting and then self host from small vps providers as well etc. Not that most people do such things tho. Internet is still heavily centralized but overall, there are still outlets of escape legally and you are able to sometimes even talk to vps provider owners themselves directly in some cases if they are small enough. But still, each year although we get away from 1984 the year, we get near to 1984 the book.
- LogicFailsMe 10mo ago
  As much as I am pro AI and I really am very pro AI, there is definitely an emperor's new AGI vibe amongst the tech bro and billionaire classes. I can only attribute it to a compulsive need to oversell everything and then deliver 25 to 50%, a state everyone is so used to now that if you try to be honest and make claims that state what you can really deliver, they will assume you can only deliver 25 to 50% of what you are claiming and therefore the guy promising twice as much gets the funding. This makes me happy that I'm nearing retirement but that switch flipping is being delayed by my hourly rate going up for possessing forgotten knowledge. Sigh...

ecshafer 10mo ago

UBI will turn Earth into the Earth of the Expanse. I truly believe it would be absolutely ruinous on man. Our psychology is just not built for that.

Rumple22Stilk 10mo ago
The earth of the expanse is 1000 times better than any time in history.
- ironman1478 10mo ago
  The life of people on earth doesn't seem better than people now. For connected people it seems great, but for the average joe it seemed awful.
  - Rumple22Stilk 9mo ago
    Yes it does. You don't have an accurate understanding of the lives of people on earth now, which is largely constant pain and suffering.
- ecshafer 10mo ago
  Did you read the expanse? The earth of the expanse is full of crime and destitution. People apply in the tens of thousands for every lottery slot of school or jobs. People just wallow in nothingness. The people fleet earth for mars and the belt just to have a basic sense of purpose. If we are to just have UBI. Have basic sustenance for no effort, while we have unlimited entertainment and porn at our finger tips. It would be a disaster. I would literally we rather have make work programs.
  - Rumple22Stilk 9mo ago
    Yes. I read the expanse. The problem is you don't understand how terrible life on earth is currently for the majority of people, you are coddled.
acdha 10mo ago

throwway120385 10mo ago

The reality of UBI in the United States is that it's going to go from being something freely given to being something that is a full time job to maintain, and then it will be cut or replaced with services that are specifically designed to be as cheap as possible. Until we're all living in terrafoam, birth-controlled and warehoused until we die.

joquarky 10mo ago
Manna keeps coming to mind for me as well. It feels like UBI is (at best) likely to become as complicated and corrupt as our tax system already is.