4 ms·

Risk taking is more frowned upon in Europe, and it's really hard to start a new business there, because of how employee friendly the laws are. One of the thing

by jedberg 10mo ago

Risk taking is more frowned upon in Europe, and it's really hard to start a new business there, because of how employee friendly the laws are. One of the things that makes starting a startup in US so favorable is that you can fire anyone at any time for any or no reason, which means you can easily retool or cut costs. And if you're not looking to start a startup, the huge different in salaries and concentration of talent in the US, especially in certain cities, is a huge draw.

qingcharles 10mo ago
Thank you. I've been saying the same thing since forever. In Europe if you say you want to start your own company you get a lot of "why would you do that? why not take a nice government job with a pension?" For all of the USA's myriad flaws, if you say the same thing people will cheer you on. It infuriates the fuck out of me that practically all the success of the Internet era has come out of one single country that can't even come up with a way to provide healthcare or vacations for their population.
- myk9001 10mo ago
  Majority of innovation comes out of that single country. What's really infuriating is Europe isn't even trying to compete beyond paying some lip service.
  - Muromec 10mo ago
    It's not really true. There are European startups, they make it big and you heard of them and used their products. The concentration in US is a thing, because that's where the money is.
Muromec 10mo ago
It's more of a problem with big established companies and less in startups really. What I'm familiar with is -- initially everyone gets a temporary 1 year contract. Contract could be not extended, but the company commits to 1 year. After two extensions, you get a permanent one and can't be fired because you look funny to your boss. Then there is outsourcing, where the contract with their company can be dropped. They are more expensive and have 1 year contracts too. People on permanent contracts have to be persuaded to sign separation agreement and have leverage over you. I have seen some funny examples of management trying to fuck over people for no good reason and then having to continue paying them for 2 years without seeing any output, but that was not a 10 people shop that would go under for it and was self-inflicted too. They mood in Europe is you as a company owner have to take the risks, not the employees. Which is reflected into salaries of course. For the startups it's not the problem I saw so far, as they benefit from having to pay lower then otherwise salary, without actually taking the risk. If the company goes under, everyone goes back to job market anyway.
myk9001 10mo ago
> because of how employee friendly the laws are. Do you have anything specific in mind? Maybe European law if friendlier to employees on avarege. But in tech US companies seem to offer similar if not better conditions. E.g., Amazon is widely considered an employer straight from hell, and yet they offer 3 monthly salaries when letting an engineer go -- that's more than a European employees typically gets. On the other hand, both layoffs and long-hours aren't unheard of in, say, Getmany.
- Muromec 10mo ago
  3 months is nothing really. Half a year is more the start of negotiation in a comparable place in Europe. That and having a 2 years burnout leave as an option and having trade unions and the regulator to sign off on your layoffs plan in more reputable places. Add: It's not that layoffs are not a thing, they are a bit more complicated and expensive for a company than getting a list of people and sending mass-email, then blocking all access.
  - myk9001 10mo ago
    Do you have a link to a labor law stating it's half a year?
    - Muromec 10mo ago
      I'm not saying it's the law, I'm saying it's the practice
  - disgruntledphd2 10mo ago
    > 3 months is nothing really. Half a year is more the start of negotiation in a comparable place in Europe. Employment law differs wildly from country to country, there is no general European labour law (with the exception of the working time directive). For instance, I live in Ireland where you can fire anyone for any reason for the first six months, and are not required to pay redundancy until after they've been employed two years. The statutory redundancy limits on wages are super low for tech, so it's almost free to do layoffs. Additionally, firing people is not really very hard, you just need to have a reason, and follow a process. You need to give a verbal warning, then a written warning, and then fire. You can't fire people because they don't suck up to you, but you can basically find a reason if you want to. I recognise that Germany/Austria/France are different, but that's exactly my point, there is very little common European labour law.

by jedberg 10mo ago

qingcharles 10mo ago

Thank you. I've been saying the same thing since forever. In Europe if you say you want to start your own company you get a lot of "why would you do that? why not take a nice government job with a pension?" For all of the USA's myriad flaws, if you say the same thing people will cheer you on. It infuriates the fuck out of me that practically all the success of the Internet era has come out of one single country that can't even come up with a way to provide healthcare or vacations for their population.

myk9001 10mo ago
Majority of innovation comes out of that single country. What's really infuriating is Europe isn't even trying to compete beyond paying some lip service.
- Muromec 10mo ago
  It's not really true. There are European startups, they make it big and you heard of them and used their products. The concentration in US is a thing, because that's where the money is.

Muromec 10mo ago

It's more of a problem with big established companies and less in startups really. What I'm familiar with is -- initially everyone gets a temporary 1 year contract. Contract could be not extended, but the company commits to 1 year. After two extensions, you get a permanent one and can't be fired because you look funny to your boss. Then there is outsourcing, where the contract with their company can be dropped. They are more expensive and have 1 year contracts too. People on permanent contracts have to be persuaded to sign separation agreement and have leverage over you. I have seen some funny examples of management trying to fuck over people for no good reason and then having to continue paying them for 2 years without seeing any output, but that was not a 10 people shop that would go under for it and was self-inflicted too. They mood in Europe is you as a company owner have to take the risks, not the employees. Which is reflected into salaries of course. For the startups it's not the problem I saw so far, as they benefit from having to pay lower then otherwise salary, without actually taking the risk. If the company goes under, everyone goes back to job market anyway.

myk9001 10mo ago

> because of how employee friendly the laws are. Do you have anything specific in mind? Maybe European law if friendlier to employees on avarege. But in tech US companies seem to offer similar if not better conditions. E.g., Amazon is widely considered an employer straight from hell, and yet they offer 3 monthly salaries when letting an engineer go -- that's more than a European employees typically gets. On the other hand, both layoffs and long-hours aren't unheard of in, say, Getmany.

Muromec 10mo ago
3 months is nothing really. Half a year is more the start of negotiation in a comparable place in Europe. That and having a 2 years burnout leave as an option and having trade unions and the regulator to sign off on your layoffs plan in more reputable places. Add: It's not that layoffs are not a thing, they are a bit more complicated and expensive for a company than getting a list of people and sending mass-email, then blocking all access.
- myk9001 10mo ago
  Do you have a link to a labor law stating it's half a year?
  - Muromec 10mo ago
    I'm not saying it's the law, I'm saying it's the practice
- disgruntledphd2 10mo ago
  > 3 months is nothing really. Half a year is more the start of negotiation in a comparable place in Europe. Employment law differs wildly from country to country, there is no general European labour law (with the exception of the working time directive). For instance, I live in Ireland where you can fire anyone for any reason for the first six months, and are not required to pay redundancy until after they've been employed two years. The statutory redundancy limits on wages are super low for tech, so it's almost free to do layoffs. Additionally, firing people is not really very hard, you just need to have a reason, and follow a process. You need to give a verbal warning, then a written warning, and then fire. You can't fire people because they don't suck up to you, but you can basically find a reason if you want to. I recognise that Germany/Austria/France are different, but that's exactly my point, there is very little common European labour law.