4 ms·

One of the things I haven't seen discussed yet in the comments is this claim: Clay-like design freedom They're claiming this not only can fit custom geometrie

by jjcm 10mo ago

One of the things I haven't seen discussed yet in the comments is this claim: Clay-like design freedom They're claiming this not only can fit custom geometries, but can be part of the structure itself. Would love to see what they're building this out of. I expect we'll see some people dissecting the verve cycle batteries soon enough.

tw04 10mo ago
I don’t see any mention of clay in the article, just this: > It can be produced in custom sizes, voltages, and geometries, enabling structural integration and non-traditional formats like serving as the body of a drone or a vehicle chassis. Battery packs are part of the structure of basically all EVs. That’s not really something new or unique.
- taneq 10mo ago
  Yeah but they’re usually a rectangular prism, more or less.
calmbonsai 10mo ago
The real issue with "clay-like design freedom" is the collective knock-on effects of thermal and conductive inefficiencies. We've had "clay-like design freedom" since the early days of carbon-zinc batteries, but it turns out that it's far better (both for manufacturing, chemistry, and safety) to have a continuous volume of relative thermal and electrolytic quiescence that's, largely, isolated from physical strains. That this is even being highlighted as a "feature" makes other claims even more dubious. Suffice to say that any battery ("electrolytic cell") that's undergoing dynamic strains will have vastly different levels of conductivity (hence power output and contribution to thermal load) than one that is geometrically static. Put another way, the performance gains from utilizing the motor as a "stressed member" (akin to F1 monocoque) in combustion vehicles was only possible circa 50+ years after the invention of the 4-stroke cycle. Talk to me in ~20 years. FWIW, my degree is in electrical engineering and I worked on our college's solar car back when "solar car racing" was "a thing". You do not want the stressed members of any structure being a salient contributor to its power-train. Not related, see mammalian, reptile, fish, and insect physiologies.
- CastIron888 10mo ago
  The Fordson tractor of 1917 appears to use the engine block and transmission case as basic structural members of the tractor. Not a fast vehicle, but tough.
  - calmbonsai 10mo ago
    Eh, the monocoque was circa early 1960s and the Otto cycle was circa 1860s, but the Model T was 1900s.
    - CastIron888 10mo ago
      Not old enough? How about a steam engine with the front axle bolted to the boiler? A steam boiler is subject to considerable stresses already and adding dynamic forces to the shell can't be a good idea? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Kemna_road_roller.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Kemna_ro...
      - calmbonsai 10mo ago
        Heh, that's not a monocoque, but it's definitely directly bolting the engine to one suspension component. WJW. We've come so far.
        CastIron888 10mo ago
        You can see in the picture the boiler is taking the load of the machine. There is no additional chassis. That's less frame than a Ducati has between the front and rear wheels. Without speaking to the wisdom of stressing batteries mechanically, the idea of using drivetrain components as structural members of a vehicle is as old as self-propelled vehicles. Hell, even a chariot sees the horse taking a part of the vehicle load.
        calmbonsai 10mo ago
driverdan 10mo ago
That's only good if they can maintain easy repairability. We don't need more expensive disposable electronics.

by jjcm 10mo ago

tw04 10mo ago

I don’t see any mention of clay in the article, just this: > It can be produced in custom sizes, voltages, and geometries, enabling structural integration and non-traditional formats like serving as the body of a drone or a vehicle chassis. Battery packs are part of the structure of basically all EVs. That’s not really something new or unique.

taneq 10mo ago
Yeah but they’re usually a rectangular prism, more or less.

calmbonsai 10mo ago

The real issue with "clay-like design freedom" is the collective knock-on effects of thermal and conductive inefficiencies. We've had "clay-like design freedom" since the early days of carbon-zinc batteries, but it turns out that it's far better (both for manufacturing, chemistry, and safety) to have a continuous volume of relative thermal and electrolytic quiescence that's, largely, isolated from physical strains. That this is even being highlighted as a "feature" makes other claims even more dubious. Suffice to say that any battery ("electrolytic cell") that's undergoing dynamic strains will have vastly different levels of conductivity (hence power output and contribution to thermal load) than one that is geometrically static. Put another way, the performance gains from utilizing the motor as a "stressed member" (akin to F1 monocoque) in combustion vehicles was only possible circa 50+ years after the invention of the 4-stroke cycle. Talk to me in ~20 years. FWIW, my degree is in electrical engineering and I worked on our college's solar car back when "solar car racing" was "a thing". You do not want the stressed members of any structure being a salient contributor to its power-train. Not related, see mammalian, reptile, fish, and insect physiologies.

CastIron888 10mo ago
The Fordson tractor of 1917 appears to use the engine block and transmission case as basic structural members of the tractor. Not a fast vehicle, but tough.
- calmbonsai 10mo ago
  Eh, the monocoque was circa early 1960s and the Otto cycle was circa 1860s, but the Model T was 1900s.
  - CastIron888 10mo ago
    Not old enough? How about a steam engine with the front axle bolted to the boiler? A steam boiler is subject to considerable stresses already and adding dynamic forces to the shell can't be a good idea? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Kemna_road_roller.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Kemna_ro...
    - calmbonsai 10mo ago
      Heh, that's not a monocoque, but it's definitely directly bolting the engine to one suspension component. WJW. We've come so far.
      - CastIron888 10mo ago
        You can see in the picture the boiler is taking the load of the machine. There is no additional chassis. That's less frame than a Ducati has between the front and rear wheels. Without speaking to the wisdom of stressing batteries mechanically, the idea of using drivetrain components as structural members of a vehicle is as old as self-propelled vehicles. Hell, even a chariot sees the horse taking a part of the vehicle load.
        calmbonsai 10mo ago

driverdan 10mo ago

That's only good if they can maintain easy repairability. We don't need more expensive disposable electronics.