6 ms·

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your lev

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your level. The problem is, you're not getting paid what you deserve for that. If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level. Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the process. Managers certainly want to take advantage of you by getting you to overperform without being overpaid. But employees should do everything they can not to fall for it. Which usually requires getting companies to compete over you.

jimbokun 10mo ago
Do the work one level up for a while and add it to your resume when searching for that higher level job at another company. Or maybe your current company will surprise you with a promotion in the meantime.
- crazygringo 10mo ago
  Or don't? Because the other company may hire you at the higher level anyways, that's the point. Because you're getting multiple companies to compete for the experience you already have. It's your task to demonstrate in interviews that you have the skills for that higher level. Which is a huge shortcut. And "maybe your current company will surprise you" just sounds like being taken advantage of to me. Because the reality is they probably won't. Not at anywhere near the same speed, usually.
  - jimbokun 10mo ago
    Companies usually want to see evidence you’ve done the kind of work required in the job you’re applying for.
    - crazygringo 10mo ago
      They want to see evidence you can do the job. Very often that's mainly tested in extensive interviews around your knowledge and skills. They don't have any kind of objective access to your current job anyways, and know very well that fancy-sounding achievements are often unreliable. Interviews give you the opportunity to demonstrate you have the skills without having to spend a year or two doing them in unpaid extra work.
  - spiderice 10mo ago
    You seem way too concerned with "nickle-and-diming" your employer. Which is just as sad as an employer who nickle-and-dimes their employees.
    - crazygringo 10mo ago
      When I say to not let yourself get taken advantage of by your employer, by working an extra 10-20 hrs/wk for free... you read that as "nickel-and-diming your employer"? And you think it's sad?
    - wiseowise 10mo ago
      How is it sad? CEO of your run of the mill bigtech swims in money like Scrooge McDuck and you simp for them?
    - jamesnorden 10mo ago
      Found the manager.
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Dave_Rosenthal 10mo ago
As a boss-man myself, I’ve seen this “don’t let them take advantage of you” sentiment expressed in many discussions about comp and promotions, but I can’t really say I understand it. Am I just out of touch? As I read it, the article is simply trying to help people understand what kind of work is valuable to a company and therefore what they should focus on to make themselves valuable. I presume that making yourself valuable pays dividends, including promotions! Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best because “you’re not getting paid … for that” just feels so cynical and divorced from how I’ve seen successful people grow and make big bucks in tech. (And this is all a bit separate, of course, than the debate about whether staying at a company or job hopping is better for career trajectory.)
- jofzar 10mo ago
  > Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best because “you’re not getting paid … for that” just feels so cynical and divorced from how I’ve seen successful people grow and make big bucks in tech The question is always how long you are "working" at the higher level. I have worked at jobs where I was working 2 levels higher then I was for close to 3 years before my new manager came in and fixed that shit (got two promotions in 2 years). As an individual contributor you are diluting your IC's value of the same people level if you are working at a higher level for free, the expectations is then that everyone else at your level does it and then it becomes the new normal, it's the "A rising tide lifts all boats" but in a negative connotation.
- crazygringo 10mo ago
  > Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best You make a great point -- let me further explain so I'm not misunderstood. If the person is putting in the same 40 hrs/wk (or whatever is standard) but just "doing their best", then there's no problem. But in my experience, your manager is expecting you to do all of your assigned role (e.g. write code), but then also do a bunch of stuff on top -- e.g. leading and taking ownership of new initiatives that is extra work. Usually something like 10-20 hours' worth per week. And so now people are working evenings and weekends to get that promotion, spending less time with their family. And a lot of them still don't get the promotion. For years, or even ever. This is all free labor for the company. They get away paying for a team of 4 instead of a team of 5. That's what I'm pushing back on. In practice, it's rarely doing your existing work but better -- it's doing a bunch of extra work that takes more time. Because nobody ever says "hey show that you can take on these new responsibilities, and so do less of your original responsibilities". Contrast this to actually being promoted, where some of your previous responsibilities are now actually delegated to others, because your job is now focused more on higher-level design and/or management.
neumann 10mo ago
This is definitely something to be aware of - especially with larger companies that aren't growing fast and this culture begins to be baked in. You see so many colleagues going the extra mile past their role requirements to earn that rare promotion, essentially jockeying to be in the running. All hands are about 'calling out' great performers and thanking them. Thank them by paying them more please. As soon as they get the promotion, the work piles on even more, and they won't be given the amount they would if they switched companies.
joshuamorton 10mo ago
> If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level. This doesn't actually follow, for a variety of reasons, including that jobs have compensation ranges and in a lot of cases the bottom of one is pretty close to, or even below, the top of the previous one. One of the big reasons that changing companies was good from a compensation perspective was 4 year initial offers. Upleveled job-switches do happen, but from what I've seen they don't usually happen much faster than internal promotions, and often they happen slower!
kamaal 10mo ago
>>Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the process. This is why most companies don't offer a promotion as a part of hiring process, and are mostly hiring at currently levels, but at a pay raise. In some cases where a promotion is available, they often pay below your current compensation, which defeats the whole point of the process.
stillworks 10mo ago
This makes sense and here is slightly different perspective to this. The company I was at had this haloed culture of promotions and I saw people sat on a certain IC level for over 5 years chasing the carrot. Some of them were close to a decade at the same level. Now, this company had several sub-orgs and it was possible to switch positions to a different team or an entirely different sub-org altogether. And guess what ? No up-leveling and no salary hikes because the overall company doesn't allow the sub-orgs to compete with each other. Fair enough. Makes sense. If they allowed it, it would be chaotic. But for some reason, their is a culture of making employees compete with each other ! To the point that the apparent lowest performer will be asked to leave the company ! (There are other ramifications to this "system" but this is not the discussion for those) The lesson I learnt was to chose your battles wisely and be prepared for interviews every single day... because in a way it indeed felt like everyday I was interviewing/competing for the job I already had... why not dial it up to eleven ? Once you feel prepared, then actually simply start interviewing. This year I am targetting at least six (once every two months) solid interviews. The more multi-stage-loops the better because that gives me the chance to politely drop out of the process at any stage. The more leetcode hards the better because leetcode hards are set in a specific way and the interviewer has to be super smart to follow up with something novel. This way, I think (correct me if I am wrong) I am implicitly up-skilling and getting better at my job AND in a state of preparedness to walk away if I felt I needed to. Managers be managing and all that $h1t... they have their jobs to do, I have my life to deal with as well. I will control what I can control.
buzzardbait 10mo ago
Good counterpoint. Throughout my rather long career I've known a few overachievers. The majority of them did not get promoted, and the ones who did get promoted were actually up-titled -- new title, miniscule pay rise. Then there are those who do the bare minimum, have frequent unplanned absences and then have the gall to ask to be promoted to a senior level simply because they've been employed at a junior level for 2 years. (I heard this from a particularly gossipy manager. People usually never disclose these things.) One thing is universally true. If you develop a reputation for being the person that regularly gets things done, somebody somewhere will notice. And that will improve your career prospects in the long run.

jimbokun 10mo ago

Do the work one level up for a while and add it to your resume when searching for that higher level job at another company. Or maybe your current company will surprise you with a promotion in the meantime.

crazygringo 10mo ago
Or don't? Because the other company may hire you at the higher level anyways, that's the point. Because you're getting multiple companies to compete for the experience you already have. It's your task to demonstrate in interviews that you have the skills for that higher level. Which is a huge shortcut. And "maybe your current company will surprise you" just sounds like being taken advantage of to me. Because the reality is they probably won't. Not at anywhere near the same speed, usually.
- jimbokun 10mo ago
  Companies usually want to see evidence you’ve done the kind of work required in the job you’re applying for.
  - crazygringo 10mo ago
    They want to see evidence you can do the job. Very often that's mainly tested in extensive interviews around your knowledge and skills. They don't have any kind of objective access to your current job anyways, and know very well that fancy-sounding achievements are often unreliable. Interviews give you the opportunity to demonstrate you have the skills without having to spend a year or two doing them in unpaid extra work.
- spiderice 10mo ago
  You seem way too concerned with "nickle-and-diming" your employer. Which is just as sad as an employer who nickle-and-dimes their employees.
  - crazygringo 10mo ago
    When I say to not let yourself get taken advantage of by your employer, by working an extra 10-20 hrs/wk for free... you read that as "nickel-and-diming your employer"? And you think it's sad?
  - wiseowise 10mo ago
    How is it sad? CEO of your run of the mill bigtech swims in money like Scrooge McDuck and you simp for them?
  - jamesnorden 10mo ago
    Found the manager.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

Dave_Rosenthal 10mo ago

As a boss-man myself, I’ve seen this “don’t let them take advantage of you” sentiment expressed in many discussions about comp and promotions, but I can’t really say I understand it. Am I just out of touch? As I read it, the article is simply trying to help people understand what kind of work is valuable to a company and therefore what they should focus on to make themselves valuable. I presume that making yourself valuable pays dividends, including promotions! Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best because “you’re not getting paid … for that” just feels so cynical and divorced from how I’ve seen successful people grow and make big bucks in tech. (And this is all a bit separate, of course, than the debate about whether staying at a company or job hopping is better for career trajectory.)

jofzar 10mo ago
> Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best because “you’re not getting paid … for that” just feels so cynical and divorced from how I’ve seen successful people grow and make big bucks in tech The question is always how long you are "working" at the higher level. I have worked at jobs where I was working 2 levels higher then I was for close to 3 years before my new manager came in and fixed that shit (got two promotions in 2 years). As an individual contributor you are diluting your IC's value of the same people level if you are working at a higher level for free, the expectations is then that everyone else at your level does it and then it becomes the new normal, it's the "A rising tide lifts all boats" but in a negative connotation.
crazygringo 10mo ago
> Somehow the idea of going to work and not trying your best You make a great point -- let me further explain so I'm not misunderstood. If the person is putting in the same 40 hrs/wk (or whatever is standard) but just "doing their best", then there's no problem. But in my experience, your manager is expecting you to do all of your assigned role (e.g. write code), but then also do a bunch of stuff on top -- e.g. leading and taking ownership of new initiatives that is extra work. Usually something like 10-20 hours' worth per week. And so now people are working evenings and weekends to get that promotion, spending less time with their family. And a lot of them still don't get the promotion. For years, or even ever. This is all free labor for the company. They get away paying for a team of 4 instead of a team of 5. That's what I'm pushing back on. In practice, it's rarely doing your existing work but better -- it's doing a bunch of extra work that takes more time. Because nobody ever says "hey show that you can take on these new responsibilities, and so do less of your original responsibilities". Contrast this to actually being promoted, where some of your previous responsibilities are now actually delegated to others, because your job is now focused more on higher-level design and/or management.

neumann 10mo ago

This is definitely something to be aware of - especially with larger companies that aren't growing fast and this culture begins to be baked in. You see so many colleagues going the extra mile past their role requirements to earn that rare promotion, essentially jockeying to be in the running. All hands are about 'calling out' great performers and thanking them. Thank them by paying them more please. As soon as they get the promotion, the work piles on even more, and they won't be given the amount they would if they switched companies.

joshuamorton 10mo ago

> If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level. This doesn't actually follow, for a variety of reasons, including that jobs have compensation ranges and in a lot of cases the bottom of one is pretty close to, or even below, the top of the previous one. One of the big reasons that changing companies was good from a compensation perspective was 4 year initial offers. Upleveled job-switches do happen, but from what I've seen they don't usually happen much faster than internal promotions, and often they happen slower!

kamaal 10mo ago

>>Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the process. This is why most companies don't offer a promotion as a part of hiring process, and are mostly hiring at currently levels, but at a pay raise. In some cases where a promotion is available, they often pay below your current compensation, which defeats the whole point of the process.

stillworks 10mo ago

This makes sense and here is slightly different perspective to this. The company I was at had this haloed culture of promotions and I saw people sat on a certain IC level for over 5 years chasing the carrot. Some of them were close to a decade at the same level. Now, this company had several sub-orgs and it was possible to switch positions to a different team or an entirely different sub-org altogether. And guess what ? No up-leveling and no salary hikes because the overall company doesn't allow the sub-orgs to compete with each other. Fair enough. Makes sense. If they allowed it, it would be chaotic. But for some reason, their is a culture of making employees compete with each other ! To the point that the apparent lowest performer will be asked to leave the company ! (There are other ramifications to this "system" but this is not the discussion for those) The lesson I learnt was to chose your battles wisely and be prepared for interviews every single day... because in a way it indeed felt like everyday I was interviewing/competing for the job I already had... why not dial it up to eleven ? Once you feel prepared, then actually simply start interviewing. This year I am targetting at least six (once every two months) solid interviews. The more multi-stage-loops the better because that gives me the chance to politely drop out of the process at any stage. The more leetcode hards the better because leetcode hards are set in a specific way and the interviewer has to be super smart to follow up with something novel. This way, I think (correct me if I am wrong) I am implicitly up-skilling and getting better at my job AND in a state of preparedness to walk away if I felt I needed to. Managers be managing and all that $h1t... they have their jobs to do, I have my life to deal with as well. I will control what I can control.

buzzardbait 10mo ago

Good counterpoint. Throughout my rather long career I've known a few overachievers. The majority of them did not get promoted, and the ones who did get promoted were actually up-titled -- new title, miniscule pay rise. Then there are those who do the bare minimum, have frequent unplanned absences and then have the gall to ask to be promoted to a senior level simply because they've been employed at a junior level for 2 years. (I heard this from a particularly gossipy manager. People usually never disclose these things.) One thing is universally true. If you develop a reputation for being the person that regularly gets things done, somebody somewhere will notice. And that will improve your career prospects in the long run.