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> Although most people profess to want to change at least one aspect of their personality, those who will put the effort in are surely far fewer Many people in

> Although most people profess to want to change at least one aspect of their personality, those who will put the effort in are surely far fewer Many people in Alcoholics Anonymous don't actually do the 12 steps as designed by Bill Wilson. They don't understand that it's a piece of spiritual technology designed to produce a spiritual awakening and a reorganization of personality. I've met many people who have become better people through the 12 steps. I've rewritten them here to give a basic outline and remove any mention of a theistic god. I am not a professional so please forgive me if I've over-simplified or got something wrong. This is how it worked for me at a basic level. 1 - Take a look and see if you have a problem. Admit you have a problem if you have one. You can't fix a problem you refuse to recognize. 2 - Recognize you've tried to solve it by yourself and have failed. You need help from others. 3 - Humble yourself enough to ask for help and be ready to follow direction 4 - List all the complaints people have about you and analyze what you might be doing wrong 5 - Share your failings, no matter how embarrassing, with a trusted other on the principle that confession is good for the soul and sunlight is the best disinfectant 6 - Ask yourself if you're really willing to change. That's not a given. Maybe you aren't. 7 - If you are then do what it takes to change. This is going to be different for everyone. 8 - Look at step 4 and see who you need to apologize to 9 - When you feel you are ready and sufficiently reformed, apologize and make restitution to those on the list you made in step 8. To those that aren't willing to talk, let it go and don't bother them. 10 - Make it a practice to do steps 4 through 9 as needed. We believe in progress not perfection. 11 - We need to remind ourselves daily that we have a problem that we can't solve alone and that we may need the help of others on any given day. I've heard it called a disease of forgetfulness. We may need to wake up in the morning to read and pray if so inclined. As one person told me, "carve out a little piece of each day for the 12 steps" 12 - Carry this message to others who are still suffering

satvikpendem 9mo ago
The 12 step program is rooted in Christian theology and treats alcoholism more like a sin rather than a health problem so I can understand why some don't want to fully follow it.
- stuffn 9mo ago
  Many of the bodily sins in the Bible are really just common sense health advice. Some are period oriented, such as eating pork, which was notoriously hard to make sanitary. Others are to insure a society functions well, like for example not banging your neighbors wife or not causing harm to people. So, in this light it makes sense to treat it like a sin. And to be fair, it is a sin in modern society as well. We even have “sin taxes” for such vices we determine can be used for tax gain. I see no real problem with this. I am unaware of any large program that forces you to give yourself up to the Christian God, but most require you to give yourself up to a higher power. This is obviously designed to give you a release from things you can’t control so you can use that mental power to help yourself get better.
  - satvikpendem 9mo ago
    But the point is it shouldn't be considered a sin, as in a moral failing, when it's a biochemical change in the body causing a disorder, and the solution is abstention and medicine (for example, GLP-1 agonists have been shown to significantly cut down on cravings [0]). It's like saying getting sick is a sin, when there preventative and curative solutions unrelated to believing in a deity or higher power. [0] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2829811 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...
    - criddell 9mo ago
      It’s foolish to ignore the social component of addiction. Some of the medicines and treatments showing the most promise are still too expensive for many. AA programs are accessible and can be helpful. You think they treat alcoholism (or alcohol abuse disorder) as a sin? In the meetings there isn’t a whole lot of judging going on. It’s mostly mutual support and compassion.
  - cess11 9mo ago
    "which was notoriously hard to make sanitary" Why were the jews unable to handle pork? Didn't their neighbours manage it?
naryJane 9mo ago
This is an extremely powerful rephrasing of the 12 steps, and I seriously appreciate you for sharing this with all of us.
- iberator 9mo ago
  Same here. i HEARD about 12 steps but never actually seen them pinpointed like that. Simple yet amazing post
- labrador 9mo ago
  You're welcome. I had to suffer a lot before I figured it out. My purpose in rewriting them was to remove the most common objection that they presuppose a Christian God.
tejohnso 9mo ago
Nice summary. Can you explain why someone who has "recovered" and is no longer suffering the ruinous effects of alcohol in their life still considered an alcoholic? I heard someone on the radio today say that they are an alcoholic, but in the same sentence said they were 30 years sober, which seemed like a massive contradiction to me. I don't think it was a mistaken use of present tense. I've heard similar statements from others.
- satvikpendem 9mo ago
  It's because they know even one casual drink can lead them down the same path they were on previously, so it's a reminder to themselves and others. It might also be something of an absolutionary statement, where they feel guilt for their past "sin" of drinking and feel the need to label themselves à la The Scarlet Letter to atone for their sin and obtain absolution.
  - musicale 9mo ago
    Maybe it is sometimes part of a person's identity. But people who have quit using tobacco or other drugs are typically called "ex-smokers" or "former users/addicts", respectively. (Even though "smoker" is still a somewhat "cool" identity in popular culture, with many movie villains - and some heroes - still smoking.)
    - wink 9mo ago
      Without trying to make it sound judgemental I know literal dozens of people who stopped smoking and it hardly comes up in conversation anymore - I think I have like 2 friends left who smoke, out of... more than 50%? And several of them smoked for 10 years or more. Maybe it's because most people don't just randomly are offered cigarettes or because it went from a "50% of the population" to "10% of the population in this age group". I'm not saying that sober alcoholics are making a big deal out of it, it just feels different - maybe because it is seen as a lot more problematic than being a smoker? Or harder to quit. Or because it's rarer.
    - unethical_ban 9mo ago
chiefalchemist 9mo ago
Interesting fun fact: There was a time early in AA history where Bill W wanted to integrate psychedelics into The Program. But was overruled by others within the organization. I learned about this from Pollan’s “How to Change Your Mind.” I’m sure it’s documented elsewhere.
kelnos 9mo ago
The thing that has always bothered me about the 12-step program is that the end goal seems to always be abstinence, at least in the context of alcoholism. It seems very strange to me that we treat the symptom, here, not the underlying disease. Abstaining from alcohol certainly does have positive affects on the life of an alcoholic, but the abuse of alcohol is a symptom, not the root issue. Do we just not yet understand addiction enough to treat it properly? Are we able to treat addiction (so, for example, someone could successfully limit themselves to low levels of social drinking that don't cause them harm), but doing so is so difficult and hit-or-miss, that we give up and only promote full abstinence as the solution? I also wonder if abstaining from alcohol can have negative affects on life for some people. Some people use alcohol as a social lubricant; abstaining might mean (detrimentally) less social interaction. In some cultures/environments, not drinking can be career-limiting (I think this is toxic, but fixing that can take generations). I think it's fair to say that, on balance, the pros of not drinking to excess all the time will (nearly?) always outweigh any cons of abstinence, but can we do better than either extreme? I poked around at some studies, and what I found was interesting. It does seem that 12-step programs tend to outperform things like cognitive behavioral therapy (though there is some disagreement here). But also many of these studies are about whether or not a given treatment achieves abstinence from alcohol, not if it treats the underlying disorder. So I'm not sure what conclusions (if any) can be drawn. (Ultimately, though, if the 12-step program worked for you, and you're happy with the results and with your life now, that's all that matters! I don't mean to demean what you've accomplished or throw shade on the life you have now. I just think this is a very high-profile societal/health issue that we seem to deal with in a very different way than we deal with others, and that seems strange to me.)
- hahahahhaah 9mo ago
  I think Naltrexone can help.
  - emmelaich 9mo ago
    Katy Herzog has written a book about her successful experience: https://www.drinkyourwaysober.com/ https://www.drinkyourwaysober.com/
ajam1507 9mo ago
My personal experience is that it does more harm than good by having meetings constantly remind people that they can easily relapse. It can be good to have structure at the beginning, but at some point the best way to stay sober is just to change your routine, do your best to stay away from triggers, and never pretend that you have an incurable disease.
- labrador 9mo ago
  The evidence on the ground is the exact opposite. Going to meetings reduces the chance of relapse. I've been to meetings all over the country and this is a constant refrain. We are most at danger when we isolate from sober people and forget that we have a problem or think it's cured. There is no cure for a real alcoholic.
  - ajam1507 9mo ago
    Because people become reliant on the system to stay sober. Not to mention the only info on the ground you're getting is from people in the cult.
NedF 9mo ago
[dead]
snarf_br 9mo ago
Sounds very cultish..
- fragmede 9mo ago
  It is! If your life is in shambles because you're suffering from alcoholism and you don't want it to be anymore, join the cult who's only requirement is a desire to quit drinking. There's no kool-aid laced with poison in a sucide death pact going on, just a desire to help people live better lives.
coldtea 9mo ago
>Many people in Alcoholics Anonymous don't actually do the 12 steps as designed by Bill Wilson. They don't understand that it's a piece of spiritual technology designed to produce a spiritual awakening and a reorganization of personality. That can still be OK, as what it is is a mix of empirical and arbitrary man-made alcoholism recovery program, not a God-given spiritual practice or a scientifically necessary one. People have succesfully recovered with less, as well as more, as well as different steps taken. And inversely, people have failed even though they followed all 12 for a long time.
Rendello 9mo ago
AA also has the Serenity Prayer (namesake of SerenityOS): > God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. Every time I think of it, I also think of the Man's Prayer recited at the end of every episode of the Red Green Show: > I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess. Amen!
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
hexbin010 9mo ago
Are you a Jordan Peterson fan by any chance? It reads a bit like how he talks (not a criticism just curious)
thoughtpeddler 9mo ago
This makes me curious about adopting the 12 Steps (per @labrador's adaptation above) for chronic procrastination, ADHD-caused issues, etc. Any fellow HN-ers have experience with this?

satvikpendem 9mo ago

The 12 step program is rooted in Christian theology and treats alcoholism more like a sin rather than a health problem so I can understand why some don't want to fully follow it.

stuffn 9mo ago
Many of the bodily sins in the Bible are really just common sense health advice. Some are period oriented, such as eating pork, which was notoriously hard to make sanitary. Others are to insure a society functions well, like for example not banging your neighbors wife or not causing harm to people. So, in this light it makes sense to treat it like a sin. And to be fair, it is a sin in modern society as well. We even have “sin taxes” for such vices we determine can be used for tax gain. I see no real problem with this. I am unaware of any large program that forces you to give yourself up to the Christian God, but most require you to give yourself up to a higher power. This is obviously designed to give you a release from things you can’t control so you can use that mental power to help yourself get better.
- satvikpendem 9mo ago
  But the point is it shouldn't be considered a sin, as in a moral failing, when it's a biochemical change in the body causing a disorder, and the solution is abstention and medicine (for example, GLP-1 agonists have been shown to significantly cut down on cravings [0]). It's like saying getting sick is a sin, when there preventative and curative solutions unrelated to believing in a deity or higher power. [0] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2829811 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...
  - criddell 9mo ago
    It’s foolish to ignore the social component of addiction. Some of the medicines and treatments showing the most promise are still too expensive for many. AA programs are accessible and can be helpful. You think they treat alcoholism (or alcohol abuse disorder) as a sin? In the meetings there isn’t a whole lot of judging going on. It’s mostly mutual support and compassion.
- cess11 9mo ago
  "which was notoriously hard to make sanitary" Why were the jews unable to handle pork? Didn't their neighbours manage it?

naryJane 9mo ago

This is an extremely powerful rephrasing of the 12 steps, and I seriously appreciate you for sharing this with all of us.

iberator 9mo ago
Same here. i HEARD about 12 steps but never actually seen them pinpointed like that. Simple yet amazing post
labrador 9mo ago
You're welcome. I had to suffer a lot before I figured it out. My purpose in rewriting them was to remove the most common objection that they presuppose a Christian God.

tejohnso 9mo ago

Nice summary. Can you explain why someone who has "recovered" and is no longer suffering the ruinous effects of alcohol in their life still considered an alcoholic? I heard someone on the radio today say that they are an alcoholic, but in the same sentence said they were 30 years sober, which seemed like a massive contradiction to me. I don't think it was a mistaken use of present tense. I've heard similar statements from others.

satvikpendem 9mo ago
It's because they know even one casual drink can lead them down the same path they were on previously, so it's a reminder to themselves and others. It might also be something of an absolutionary statement, where they feel guilt for their past "sin" of drinking and feel the need to label themselves à la The Scarlet Letter to atone for their sin and obtain absolution.
- musicale 9mo ago
  Maybe it is sometimes part of a person's identity. But people who have quit using tobacco or other drugs are typically called "ex-smokers" or "former users/addicts", respectively. (Even though "smoker" is still a somewhat "cool" identity in popular culture, with many movie villains - and some heroes - still smoking.)
  - wink 9mo ago
    Without trying to make it sound judgemental I know literal dozens of people who stopped smoking and it hardly comes up in conversation anymore - I think I have like 2 friends left who smoke, out of... more than 50%? And several of them smoked for 10 years or more. Maybe it's because most people don't just randomly are offered cigarettes or because it went from a "50% of the population" to "10% of the population in this age group". I'm not saying that sober alcoholics are making a big deal out of it, it just feels different - maybe because it is seen as a lot more problematic than being a smoker? Or harder to quit. Or because it's rarer.
  - unethical_ban 9mo ago

chiefalchemist 9mo ago

Interesting fun fact: There was a time early in AA history where Bill W wanted to integrate psychedelics into The Program. But was overruled by others within the organization. I learned about this from Pollan’s “How to Change Your Mind.” I’m sure it’s documented elsewhere.

kelnos 9mo ago

The thing that has always bothered me about the 12-step program is that the end goal seems to always be abstinence, at least in the context of alcoholism. It seems very strange to me that we treat the symptom, here, not the underlying disease. Abstaining from alcohol certainly does have positive affects on the life of an alcoholic, but the abuse of alcohol is a symptom, not the root issue. Do we just not yet understand addiction enough to treat it properly? Are we able to treat addiction (so, for example, someone could successfully limit themselves to low levels of social drinking that don't cause them harm), but doing so is so difficult and hit-or-miss, that we give up and only promote full abstinence as the solution? I also wonder if abstaining from alcohol can have negative affects on life for some people. Some people use alcohol as a social lubricant; abstaining might mean (detrimentally) less social interaction. In some cultures/environments, not drinking can be career-limiting (I think this is toxic, but fixing that can take generations). I think it's fair to say that, on balance, the pros of not drinking to excess all the time will (nearly?) always outweigh any cons of abstinence, but can we do better than either extreme? I poked around at some studies, and what I found was interesting. It does seem that 12-step programs tend to outperform things like cognitive behavioral therapy (though there is some disagreement here). But also many of these studies are about whether or not a given treatment achieves abstinence from alcohol, not if it treats the underlying disorder. So I'm not sure what conclusions (if any) can be drawn. (Ultimately, though, if the 12-step program worked for you, and you're happy with the results and with your life now, that's all that matters! I don't mean to demean what you've accomplished or throw shade on the life you have now. I just think this is a very high-profile societal/health issue that we seem to deal with in a very different way than we deal with others, and that seems strange to me.)

hahahahhaah 9mo ago
I think Naltrexone can help.
- emmelaich 9mo ago
  Katy Herzog has written a book about her successful experience: https://www.drinkyourwaysober.com/ https://www.drinkyourwaysober.com/

ajam1507 9mo ago

My personal experience is that it does more harm than good by having meetings constantly remind people that they can easily relapse. It can be good to have structure at the beginning, but at some point the best way to stay sober is just to change your routine, do your best to stay away from triggers, and never pretend that you have an incurable disease.

labrador 9mo ago
The evidence on the ground is the exact opposite. Going to meetings reduces the chance of relapse. I've been to meetings all over the country and this is a constant refrain. We are most at danger when we isolate from sober people and forget that we have a problem or think it's cured. There is no cure for a real alcoholic.
- ajam1507 9mo ago
  Because people become reliant on the system to stay sober. Not to mention the only info on the ground you're getting is from people in the cult.

NedF 9mo ago

[dead]

snarf_br 9mo ago

Sounds very cultish..

fragmede 9mo ago
It is! If your life is in shambles because you're suffering from alcoholism and you don't want it to be anymore, join the cult who's only requirement is a desire to quit drinking. There's no kool-aid laced with poison in a sucide death pact going on, just a desire to help people live better lives.

coldtea 9mo ago

>Many people in Alcoholics Anonymous don't actually do the 12 steps as designed by Bill Wilson. They don't understand that it's a piece of spiritual technology designed to produce a spiritual awakening and a reorganization of personality. That can still be OK, as what it is is a mix of empirical and arbitrary man-made alcoholism recovery program, not a God-given spiritual practice or a scientifically necessary one. People have succesfully recovered with less, as well as more, as well as different steps taken. And inversely, people have failed even though they followed all 12 for a long time.

Rendello 9mo ago

AA also has the Serenity Prayer (namesake of SerenityOS): > God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. Every time I think of it, I also think of the Man's Prayer recited at the end of every episode of the Red Green Show: > I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess. Amen!

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

hexbin010 9mo ago

Are you a Jordan Peterson fan by any chance? It reads a bit like how he talks (not a criticism just curious)

thoughtpeddler 9mo ago

This makes me curious about adopting the 12 Steps (per @labrador's adaptation above) for chronic procrastination, ADHD-caused issues, etc. Any fellow HN-ers have experience with this?