3 ms·

I think then big part is maintenance, xorg doesn't look likely to be maintained long into the future in the way Wayland will be. And a lot of the Xorg maintaine

I think then big part is maintenance, xorg doesn't look likely to be maintained long into the future in the way Wayland will be. And a lot of the Xorg maintainers are now working in Wayland. So good or bad idea, Wayland is slowly shifting to being the default in virtue of being the most maintained up to date compositor.

safety1st 9mo ago
There's actually a very active fork of Xorg called Xlibre, started by a former Xorg contributor, which seeks to "revitalize and modernize" X: https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver?tab=readme-ov-file
- Hendrikto 9mo ago
  This guy started that Xlibre fork over throwing a fit because he was told not to break Xorg with his contributions, and he ranted that he just wants to be able to merge whatever he wants. I would not trust the stability of that fork at all.
  - safety1st 9mo ago
    Looks to me like he's a belligerent personality, but probably not wrong when he says Redhat has an agenda that involves suppressing progress on Xorg and forcing Wayland on users instead. I was open minded toward Wayland when the project was started... in 2008. We are 18 years down the road now. It has failed to deliver a usable piece of software for the desktop. That's long enough for me to consider it a failed project. If it still exists, it's probably for the wrong reasons (or at the least, reasons unrelated to any version of desktop Linux I want to run, like perhaps it has use in the embedded space).
    - GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
      Taking the proposition as true, what goal does Redhat have in "forcing wayland on users"? I am asking this in good faith, I literally naively do not understand what the "bad" bit is. Like, ok, its 2030 and X11 is dead, no one works on it anymore and 90% of Linux users use Wayland, what did they gain? I know they did employ Pottering but not anymore, and AFAIK they contribute a non-trivial amount of code up stream to, Linux, Gnome? KDE? If more users are on wayland they can pressure Gnome to ... what? I sort of get an argument around systemd and this, in that they can push I guess their target feature sets into systemd and force the rest of the eco-system to follow them, but, well I guess I don't get that argument either, cause they can already put any special sauce they want in Redhat's shipped systemd implementation and if its good it will be picked up, if its bad it wont be? I guess, if Redhat maintains systemd & wayland, then they could choke out community contributions by ignoring them or whatever, but wouldn't we just see forks? Arch would just ship with cooler-systemd or whatever?
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
      - simoncion 9mo ago
        > ...what goal does Redhat have in "forcing wayland on users"? The same goal any group of savvy corporate employees has when their marquee project has proved to be far more difficult, taken way longer, and required far more resources than anticipated to get within artillery distance of its originally-stated goal? I've personally seen this sort of thing play out several times during my tenure in the corporate environment.
        GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
        I honestly dont know what that means, I've never worked in a big company/corporation. Try and disown it? How does that fit with xlibres anti-corporate control stance? I guess it they push wayland then drop it, we're left with X11 ignored and a non-financially supported alternative? I guess I just don't get how the third E in EEE plays out in an open source environment.
      - GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
        Cant Edit: I mention Pottering above because I remember similar arguments against his stuff (that I also never really fully understood in terms of "end game"), not because I have personal animosity against him or his projects or want to hold him up as "example of what can go wrong".
        safety1st 9mo ago
        There is a massive class of things in open source you can look at from the perspective of "Suppose a megacorp or private equity owns this entity and wants to cut costs as much as possible while contributing as little back to the community/ecosystem as possible... what happens next?" And boom you can suddenly see the Matrix. So in the case of Redhat it's likely just IBM being IBM at the financial level and all these little decisions trend a certain way in the long run because of that
      - 9mo ago
    - redeeman 9mo ago
      ridiculous, wayland all in all provides a far better experience than X11, and wayland projects like plasma, hyprland, sway etc are very much not failed
      - hulitu 9mo ago
        > wayland all in all provides a far better experience than X11, if all your programs are KDE or GNOME programs. BTW, can you run GNOME programs in KDE in Wayland or do you have to switch to GNOME ?
  - sylware 9mo ago
    I build my own distro, I build myself Xorg: I did witness his Xorg breakage all over the place. I did welcome happily the revert of all his code.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- jeltz 9mo ago
  There is also Phoenix: https://git.dec05eba.com/phoenix/about/ https://git.dec05eba.com/phoenix/about/
  - hulitu 9mo ago
    Current state Phoenix is not ready to be used yet.
franga2000 9mo ago
Wayland is not a compositor. Being more maintaned than Xorg doesn't mean anything because wayland doesn't do a tenth of the things Xorg did. What used to be maintained in one codebase by Xorg devs is now duplicated in at least three major compositors, each with their own portal implementation and who knows what else. And those are primarily maintaned by desktop environment devs who also have the whole rest of the DE to worry about.

safety1st 9mo ago

There's actually a very active fork of Xorg called Xlibre, started by a former Xorg contributor, which seeks to "revitalize and modernize" X: https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver?tab=readme-ov-file

Hendrikto 9mo ago
This guy started that Xlibre fork over throwing a fit because he was told not to break Xorg with his contributions, and he ranted that he just wants to be able to merge whatever he wants. I would not trust the stability of that fork at all.
- safety1st 9mo ago
  Looks to me like he's a belligerent personality, but probably not wrong when he says Redhat has an agenda that involves suppressing progress on Xorg and forcing Wayland on users instead. I was open minded toward Wayland when the project was started... in 2008. We are 18 years down the road now. It has failed to deliver a usable piece of software for the desktop. That's long enough for me to consider it a failed project. If it still exists, it's probably for the wrong reasons (or at the least, reasons unrelated to any version of desktop Linux I want to run, like perhaps it has use in the embedded space).
  - GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
    Taking the proposition as true, what goal does Redhat have in "forcing wayland on users"? I am asking this in good faith, I literally naively do not understand what the "bad" bit is. Like, ok, its 2030 and X11 is dead, no one works on it anymore and 90% of Linux users use Wayland, what did they gain? I know they did employ Pottering but not anymore, and AFAIK they contribute a non-trivial amount of code up stream to, Linux, Gnome? KDE? If more users are on wayland they can pressure Gnome to ... what? I sort of get an argument around systemd and this, in that they can push I guess their target feature sets into systemd and force the rest of the eco-system to follow them, but, well I guess I don't get that argument either, cause they can already put any special sauce they want in Redhat's shipped systemd implementation and if its good it will be picked up, if its bad it wont be? I guess, if Redhat maintains systemd & wayland, then they could choke out community contributions by ignoring them or whatever, but wouldn't we just see forks? Arch would just ship with cooler-systemd or whatever?
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - simoncion 9mo ago
      > ...what goal does Redhat have in "forcing wayland on users"? The same goal any group of savvy corporate employees has when their marquee project has proved to be far more difficult, taken way longer, and required far more resources than anticipated to get within artillery distance of its originally-stated goal? I've personally seen this sort of thing play out several times during my tenure in the corporate environment.
      - GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
        I honestly dont know what that means, I've never worked in a big company/corporation. Try and disown it? How does that fit with xlibres anti-corporate control stance? I guess it they push wayland then drop it, we're left with X11 ignored and a non-financially supported alternative? I guess I just don't get how the third E in EEE plays out in an open source environment.
    - GCUMstlyHarmls 9mo ago
      Cant Edit: I mention Pottering above because I remember similar arguments against his stuff (that I also never really fully understood in terms of "end game"), not because I have personal animosity against him or his projects or want to hold him up as "example of what can go wrong".
      - safety1st 9mo ago
        There is a massive class of things in open source you can look at from the perspective of "Suppose a megacorp or private equity owns this entity and wants to cut costs as much as possible while contributing as little back to the community/ecosystem as possible... what happens next?" And boom you can suddenly see the Matrix. So in the case of Redhat it's likely just IBM being IBM at the financial level and all these little decisions trend a certain way in the long run because of that
    - 9mo ago
  - redeeman 9mo ago
    ridiculous, wayland all in all provides a far better experience than X11, and wayland projects like plasma, hyprland, sway etc are very much not failed
    - hulitu 9mo ago
      > wayland all in all provides a far better experience than X11, if all your programs are KDE or GNOME programs. BTW, can you run GNOME programs in KDE in Wayland or do you have to switch to GNOME ?
- sylware 9mo ago
  I build my own distro, I build myself Xorg: I did witness his Xorg breakage all over the place. I did welcome happily the revert of all his code.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
jeltz 9mo ago
There is also Phoenix: https://git.dec05eba.com/phoenix/about/ https://git.dec05eba.com/phoenix/about/
- hulitu 9mo ago
  Current state Phoenix is not ready to be used yet.

franga2000 9mo ago

Wayland is not a compositor. Being more maintaned than Xorg doesn't mean anything because wayland doesn't do a tenth of the things Xorg did. What used to be maintained in one codebase by Xorg devs is now duplicated in at least three major compositors, each with their own portal implementation and who knows what else. And those are primarily maintaned by desktop environment devs who also have the whole rest of the DE to worry about.