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Linux Runs on Raspberry Pi RP2350's Hazard3 RISC-V Cores (2024)
- sylware 10mo agoI wish I could buy RP2350 with the ARM cores being hard-fused disabled, "cheaper" since no ARM royalties would have to be paid. That said, I wonder how much they did improve their hazard3 design, because we all know the future is no PI locked ARM cores. I wonder if they are sharing part of the design of other open source RISC-V cores. If those efforts are kept significant, the future is looking good and better there. Hopefully, all that will be a success (=latest silicon process, ultra-performant RISC-V implementation in mobile/embedded/desktop/server).
- danhor 10mo agoThe Hazard 3 is basically a hobby project of Luke Wren, a Raspberry Pi Employee. He's contiuing to evolve it further, but I don't think it's ready for a full replacement of the Cortex-M yet, especially in regards to the Security Features. The source code is all from Luke Wren and I don't think other cores use the source code directly, but improvements to test harnesses or general implementation patterns as well as better software support help other cores: https://github.com/Wren6991/Hazard3 https://github.com/Wren6991/Hazard3 For the SoCs I would expect to see an off-the-shelf Risc-V core (certainly no Hazard3 as the main CPU), but we'll see.
- sylware 10mo agolinux started as a hobby project... I am curious to know which RISC-V design they'll go for in this SOC. M. Wren getting real hard experience on RISC-V is going only to help RP to select and audit more seriously any RISC-V design which would make its way in their SOCs. I just don't want to contribute to arm IP racketering (and we have mpeg and hdmi to take into account too with avX and eDP/DP).
- Findecanor 10mo agoThe Hazard3 in the Pico 2 are bigger, more capable cores than the Cortex-M0 in the first Pico, and therefore in general faster at the same clock for compiled code. You're supposed to be able to just recompile most Pico projects to use them as long as there is no ARM assembly in it. They are only inferior to the ARM Cortex-M33 cores in the Pico 2.
- PunchyHamster 10mo agoSo they come inferior in the only place it matters, gotcha
- ipdashc 10mo agoI know the "basically" is probably doing a bunch of heavy lifting, but dang, that's still awesome to think about. I didn't know hardware development was at the point where a hobby project CPU, apparently mostly developed by one guy, can realistically end up in a mass produced product like that. Quick edit: sounds like "basically" wasn't doing that much heavy lifting after all, wow https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/risc-v-on-raspberry-pi-pico-2/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/risc-v-on-raspberry-pi-pico...
- Tharre 10mo agoYou can probably already get that if you order a somewhat significant amount of chips directly from Raspberry Pi. They seem to already have everything required for it, it's literally just setting a bit differently during factory programming. But I'm assuming you're talking about for consumer use, in which case my question is why? There is absolutely no way you're ever benefiting from them spinning up an extra SKU with significantly less volume (most people want the ARM cores). Even if they decide to eat the costs for the benefit of consumers, at most the chip would be what, 15 cents cheaper? I really struggle to see how that's a meaningful difference for hobbyist use.
- duskwuff 10mo ago> You can probably already get that if you order a somewhat significant amount of chips directly from Raspberry Pi. It's not currently possible. As of the A3 stepping, the ARM_DISABLE OTP bit is ignored as a security mitigation - changing that would require a new mask revision.
- phkahler 10mo ago>> I wish I could buy RP2350 with the ARM cores being hard-fused disabled, "cheaper" since no ARM royalties would have to be paid. Better yet, put 4 RISC-V cores on there!
- duskwuff 10mo agoNot possible without substantial changes. The system bus and SIO are only configured for two active cores; they'd have to be rearchitected to support more. In particular, inter-processor communication would need major changes to support more than two cores - right now, it consists of a single pair of FIFOs between the two active cores.
- rmu09 10mo agoIt would probably make more sense to target something like this https://www.hackster.io/news/andrew-bunnie-huang-prepares-the-dabao-a-dev-board-for-baochip-s-mostly-open-x1-risc-v-mcu-1b7cad7fa2ea https://www.hackster.io/news/andrew-bunnie-huang-prepares-th... with linux, has MMU and more RAM.
- sho_hn 10mo agoThis one runs Linux on the ARM cores rather than the RISC-V cores in the same package, so it's apples and oranges, but still pretty neat for something that comes essentially with a companion MCU and is in the same form factor: https://milkv.io/duo https://milkv.io/duo In embedded systems it's very common to have a bigger SoC and a satellite MCU to handle e.g. network comm and power lifecycle. I've still not really tried out my Milk-V Duo, but it's interesting to get a combo like this in a hobbyist board form factor. They also claim desktop-class performance for this RISC-V-based miniITX board, it's a bit weird though since it doesn't claim RVA23 compliance: https://milkv.io/titan https://milkv.io/titan
- arjunbajaj 10mo agoI'm building Fostrom (https://fostrom.io https://fostrom.io), an IoT Cloud Platform. We have Device SDKs to simplify integrating devices, powered by a small Device Agent written in Rust. I wanted to support RISC-V boards too, so I went with the Milk-V Duo S as the test device. I have managed to get Tailscale working, and our Device SDK works too, with the bundled Python. The experience of using the Milk-V Duo is definitely not as straightforward as the Pi Zero, but it does work, and is easily available in most places, unlike some of their other products. The Linux distro they provide is quite barebones, and I wasn't able to get Debian working. The docs for the device are pretty decent. I hope we get better support for Debian/Alpine/Arch for these kinds of boards soon.
- jacquesm 10mo agoAvailability is a major factor in projects like this.
- jokoon 10mo agoI don't even know what would be the point of such device, and if there really is a market for it for tech companies. I would say yes? As a consumer, all I want if a very minimal "phone", with wifi, touch screen, battery, but no 4g or mobile networking, and linux on it. Just the cheapest, smallest, wifi, battery-powered, touchscreen LCD device that could exist that can run executables. People are going to say "but just buy a cheap phone", but I cannot really run custom software on those, I can't expect to install a custom system image, and generally even cheap phones CPU SOC are way way too powerful. Open source phones are generally crazy expensive and very powerful, and I am not going to buy those. With the range of hardware that exist out there, I think such device could cost about 60 euros, and it would be more interesting than a RPI. The RPI is an amazing product, but it lacks an all integrated consumer device with an actual screen and battery. Of course I can already build one with a compute module etc, but it's not really portable and not designed around a flat battery.
- tecleandor 10mo agoFirst, note that what's on that article is not an Raspberry Pi, it's a Raspberry Pi Pico. I'm not sure about what you want. You don't want a phone, so you want... A tablet, maybe? Or a Raspberry Pi 3/4/5 with a touch screen? Do you want a small screen? Big? Keyboard/Keypad? Touch only?
- bee_rider 10mo agoThey don’t make cellphones, they make little computers. Hypothetically you could probably use an Arduino or an esp32 to make a cellphone, but you wouldn’t say those organizations lack an all-integrated consumer device, right? They just aren’t in that business.
- mghackerlady 10mo agoYou can buy touchscreen enclosures for the various pi models. If you want to put in the effort to make your own PCB you could really slim it down by using a pi compute module
- numpad0 10mo ago> I think such device could cost about 60 euros Making a thing made, shipped and delivered at 60 euros each on credit cards is HARD. 600 is easier. 60m consider it done. I wouldn't want to even make and sell, idk, a lens cap for a camera, at that price, without first owning couple factories running at healthy levels of utilization. Maaaaybe if my customers would be happy with a 3D printed artisanal version of it. But even then it'll technically be delivered at a slight loss.
- PunchyHamster 10mo agoafter https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=35.%20Linux4004 https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=35.%20Linux4004 nothing's really impressive when it comes to making it run linux, doubly so that it runs just normal Debian userspace
- ge96 10mo agoWhat about Commodore where it took 7 hrs to boot (video YT) Edit: oh damn this one is even worse 8.4 days ha
- mosura 10mo agoThat is too practical. For ultimate HN bait it needs to include Rust deployed (over QUIC) as WASM on RISC-V.
- IgorPartola 10mo agoBut the CPU needs to be build in Minecraft.
- apitman 10mo agoRust and QUIC are bloated, but I'll take WASM and RISC-V
- RobotToaster 10mo agoHas anyone run linux on thermionic valves yet?
- mghackerlady 10mo agoI'd really like to see a pi zero 3 that runs on RISC-V, it might be the kick in the pants RISC-V needs to go "mainstream" at least in the public view. People know raspberry pi, nobody outside the RISC-V scene really cares or even knows about MILK-V
- eek2121 10mo agoRISC-V needs an inexpensive, performant part for it to be used in the consumer space. The fastest available RISC-V consumer chip is orders of magnitude slower than a Raspberry Pi 5. Example: https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/15998376?baseline=14476499 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/15998376?baseli...
- snvzz 10mo agoThe first RVA23 chips should appear this year. Tenstorrent has announced a development board using the Tenstorrent Atlantis chip, with Ascalon cores, TBA Q2. The performance of this chip should be above Apple M1 or AMD Zen2, comfortably above Raspberry Pi 5, and sufficient for most people's everyday computer usage.
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- mghackerlady 10mo agoThat's why I was saying a "zero 3" would be a good fit. It doesn't need to be as fast as a pi 5, just comfortably faster than the zero 2
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- lenerdenator 10mo agoSo we've got a truly free OS; how free is this implementation of RISC-V? Honest question, I don't follow much on the hardware front.
- Zhyl 10mo agoIt's an open source core design [0], so pretty open. [0] https://github.com/Wren6991/Hazard3 https://github.com/Wren6991/Hazard3
- walterbell 10mo agoLinux on Pi Zero can be used as a sidecar for iPads. https://schwarztech.net/articles/my-ipads-raspberry-pi-sidecar https://schwarztech.net/articles/my-ipads-raspberry-pi-sidec... This method configures the Raspberry Pi [Zero] in “gadget” mode, creating a private link that appears as a wired Ethernet connection over a USB cable. The Pi’s address will never change, either as it is also a DHCP server for the iPad. As an added bonus, the same cable powers the Pi, creating a setup as simple as plugging the Pi into your iPad and waiting for it to appear .. you have a full-blown Linux computer working in tandem with your iPad and the iPad acting as a directly-connected console that is also providing power.
- 0x457 10mo agoAny non RP2xxx pi can be used like that. Unrelated to this post at all? I only fall back to that when there is no interwebs, otherwise connecting over ssh to a normal server is far more productive.
- walterbell 10mo agoThose are larger. RP2350 1.5" iPad sidecar with microSD = 90% discount on Apple storage, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46562471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46562471
- 0x457 10mo agoCan you provide an example of rp2350 being useful as a sidecar outside of context being a dev board with GPIO? I used sidecar to run my portable dev env, so I can write and compile code while I'm traveling. Ultimately, I changed this setup to have NUC-ish machine with me that plugs into a wall and normal Ethernet cable to connect to iPad because even RPi 5 is too slow for anything I do. I don't see linked rp2350 being useful at all. Discount on what storage? Apple doesn't deal in microSD cards on iPads. There are much easier ways to get microSD or even NVMe on iPad than a linux sidecar.
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- fsiefken 10mo agoAlternatively the RP2350 can also run Fuzix
- wbsun 10mo agoOh running Linux on a MCU without MMU. I feel there is a gap between MCU and modern CPU, and also between the software running on top of them. The missing piece is a mid-size computer with: - A processor, single or multi-core, with computing power like 20 years ago, but modern fabrication process. Maybe without MMU for simplicity. - RAM between 100MB~1GB and DDR2/3 bandwidth. - An OS designed and implemented for this type of hardware rather than tailored Linux. I don't think you can use it for working or your daily entertainment, so I guess not a good business to attract interests.
- synack 10mo agoThat was Intel Quark. It was too expensive for the “big microcontroller” use case and too power hungry for the “small Linux” use case. The marketing was confusing, I’m not sure Intel even knew what it was for, except to show investors they had an IoT play. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quark I found some of these boards in a box last year and was unable to do anything with them… Intel has thoroughly erased all documentation and SDKs from the internet. If anyone has those artifacts, please push to archive.org
- wbsun 10mo agoMaking 20 y/o CPU with today's process? It is cool but yeah not really a wise business decision.
- bmicraft 10mo agoFor all intents and purposes, the fist raspberry pi is pretty much that, except maybe the tailored OS. Although I'm not sure what would even fit between a fully featured rtos and a trimmed down linux.
- u8080 10mo agoThere are multiple offers like Allwinner V831, Rockchip RV1108, etc with devboards costing ~$15
- itomato 10mo agoBuildroot is awesome and deserves more love