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Well, as always, who decides the leader is illegitimate? Are the Saudis illegitimate, according the the rubric we put on Maduro? The UN deliberately has no me
by woooooo 9mo ago
Well, as always, who decides the leader is illegitimate? Are the Saudis illegitimate, according the the rubric we put on Maduro?
The UN deliberately has no mechanism for this because it's a talking shop intended to help avoid war by providing a talking venue. That's the whole idea, they're not the world police, there is no such thing. They're a forum.
I'm absolutely not defending any given dictator but history shows that every attempt to remove a dictator "for the greater good" is usually 1) selfishly motivated and 2) backfires horribly.
- ModernMech 9mo agoAlso 3) not ever about the the greater good, that’s a pretext
- nkmnz 9mo agoHow exactly did the removal of Hitler backfire?
- woooooo 9mo agoI think WW2 had a little bit more justification than whatever this is.
- andsoitis 9mo agoImagine if Hitler was removed before... Instead, foreign powers favored appeasement and trade; conservative elites thought they could control him, Nazi propaganda and terror consolidated power, and Germans were disillusioned with democracy after WW1.
- woooooo 9mo agoI shouldn't bite but are you seriously saying Maduro had Hitler-like potential to ignite global war if we didn't stop him?
- andsoitis 9mo ago> are you seriously saying Maduro had Hitler-like potential to ignite global war if we didn't stop him? No, and in fact the comparison to Hitler felt out of place. I'm simply saying that it isn't as black and white that one should NEVER remove a head of state. What I will concede is that catch 22 of not knowing how the future will play out, so how COULD you confidently and with wide agreement intervene BEFORE someone commits atrocities.
- monerozcash 9mo agoWell, while comparing Maduro and Hitler is a bit excessive, he has successfully driven out like 8 million people from Venezuela. That's something.
- komali2 9mo agoI'm still not convinced removing Hitler before his invasion of Poland would have been a good idea, it seems possible someone like Himmler would be just as capable of picking up Mein Kampf as an ideological framework to continue imperialism and kick off genocide. "Look what the Jews and communists did when we tried to stand up to them, they killed the leader of our movement," etc etc. Once the genocide started though I do thing all considerations, including national stability and continuity, are lower priority than ending the genocide as fast as possible.
- jacquesm 9mo agoLike Hitler, Trump has (or rather, had, based on recent performance) the power of oratory. Himmler did not and I wonder if he would have been able to whip up the kind of fervor that Hitler did. That's what made Trump so dangerous, it is insane that such terrible people have such a charismatic appeal. To me they are horrible men, to others they seem to come across as some kind of savior.
- nkmnz 9mo agoThen maybe you should rephrase your comment, because this is what I've replied to: > every attempt to remove a dictator "for the greater good" is usually 1) selfishly motivated and 2) backfires horribly.
- komali2 9mo agoGenocide being the exception, perhaps. Basically, "leave it to the population to sort out themselves, even if they've lost the democratic means to do so," up until a government has gone so insane it's massacring its people, or other people.
- nkmnz 9mo agoSo we should have done a much bigger intervention in Syria, much earlier? We should intervene in Sudan right now? We should finally intervene in Russia where they slaughter their own children and Ukrainians in a genocidal war of aggression? We should finally intervene in Palestine and destroy Hamas (and in Iran and destroy their Mullah-sponsors) who've committed a genocide on October 7th, killing thousands of Israelis and ten thousands of Palestinians?
- DecoySalamander 9mo agoFrom a purely moral standpoint, my answer would be "yes, absolutely." Unfortunately, most of these interventions are not practically possible. Taking out a dictator in US's backyard is so much easier (and easier to do bloodlessly) than any of these examples.
- komali2 9mo agoYes, perhaps, as well as Netanyahu to stop his genocide of the Palestinians.
- astrea 9mo agoIt’s quite reductionist to compare this Maduro situation to WW2.
- jakeydus 9mo agoYeah, ask any Chilean how the installation of Pinochet worked out.
- woooooo 9mo agoI'm arguing against the US installing leaders in Latin America, sorry if I was unclear. I happen to have some Chilean friends and stories from them, from the Pinochet era, have helped shape my perspective.
- jakeydus 9mo agoYes, I was just adding some context for any MAGA here that might genuinely think that US intervention in Latin America has ever been a good thing.
- MisterMower 9mo agoGood for South America? Or good for the USA?
- jakeydus 9mo agoYes. To phrase it more completely, regime change and general destabilization of Latin American countries has definitely led to the immigration crisis in the United States now. Lack of stable governments and economies has absolutely exacerbated the production and transportation of drugs into the United States. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been killed or disappeared by US-empowered gangs or governments. Now that said, I don't know what the world would look like had their right to self-determination been preserved. Nobody knows. But as a general rule, countries whose power structures were not toyed with by colonial powers do better than countries whose power structures were toyed with.
- flobosg 9mo agoThe country remains polarized, so the answers might surprise you.