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Why would it be invading the country if they were invited in by what they consider to be representatives of the legitimate government? I think to begin with yo

Why would it be invading the country if they were invited in by what they consider to be representatives of the legitimate government? I think to begin with you'll have to actually present the argument as to why Maduro should be considered the legitimate leader of Venezuela.

saubeidl 10mo ago
It doesn't matter what Americans consider to be the representatives of the legitimate government. Maduro was the legitimate government, American wishful thinking is just another affront to Venezuelan sovereignty.
- monerozcash 10mo ago
  >It doesn't matter what Americans consider to be the representatives of the legitimate government. Really? I thought the US just arrested Maduro. To me, that seems like something that would matter. >Maduro was the legitimate government, American wishful thinking is just another affront to Venezuelan sovereignty. Can you actually try to explain why? Can you explain why a reasonable person looking at this from the outside should arrive at the conclusion that "Maduro was the legitimate government"?
  - brahma-dev 10mo ago
    The same way any reasonable person thinks Trump is the government of US of A, regardless of his affinity to scammers, pedophiles or Russia. Wishful thinking does not change facts.
    - monerozcash 10mo ago
      No, I don't think anyone seriously doubts whether or not Trump actually won the elections after which he was appointed president. The same however is not true of Maduro, where "Maduro did not actually get sufficient votes to win the latest election" is a pretty commonly held view backed by evidence. You might reasonably doubt the veracity of that evidence, but directly comparing Maduro's position with that of Trump is simply ridiculous.
      - brahma-dev 10mo ago
        That's what I said. Yes it's a fact and not merely a commonly held view that Trump's campaign had Russian actors, but reasonable people still consider him President, and not a puppet placed by Putin.
        monerozcash 10mo ago
        > Yes it's a fact and not merely a commonly held view that Trump's campaign had Russian actors, but reasonable people still consider him President Yes, because that in no way invalidates the election results. I really don't see how this is in any way comparable or relevant. > and not a puppet placed by Putin. Trump being a puppet placed by Putin would not invalidate his presidency.
        brahma-dev 10mo ago
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        monerozcash 10mo ago
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        brahma-dev 10mo ago
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  - saubeidl 10mo ago
    > Really? I thought the US just arrested Maduro. To me, that seems like something that would matter. You can't arrest a foreign head of state in a country where you have no jurisdiction. You can only kidnap them, as a rogue state. Do you think Iran should be able to arrest Trump because they don't consider him legitimate? International law isn't "I don't like you, so I will 'arrest' you". It's rules that all countries are bound by and that the US is breaking - making themselves a rogue state on the same level as North Korea. > Can you actually try to explain why? Can you explain why a reasonable person looking at this from the outside should arrive at the conclusion that "Maduro was the legitimate government"? Because he led Venezuela, that's what makes him the government of Venezuela. Any judgement on legitimacy is reserved to the Venezuelan people, not far-right oligarchs (who the US government considers the "legitimate government" since they'll make for nice puppets as they rob the place), not foreign dictators like Trump.
    - monerozcash 10mo ago
      > Any judgement on legitimacy is reserved to the Venezuelan people The whole point is that the Venezuelan people have supposedly voted for Edmundo González and not Maduro.
      - saubeidl 10mo ago
        According to... Edmundo Gonzalez and the US.
        monerozcash 10mo ago
        Hey, sure. I guess you could add EU states and most Latin American countries to that list too. My point all along has been that in the end this probably depends entirely on who you believe about the elections.
chrisjj 10mo ago
> I think to begin with you'll have to actually present the argument as to why Maduro should be considered the legitimate leader of Venezuela I think first your evidence for "they were invited in by what they consider to be representatives of the legitimate government".
- monerozcash 10mo ago
  I think it's not an unreasonable assumption to start from that the US government is working in collusion with the opposition it openly backs in Venezuela? It also feels silly to imagine that Venezuelan opposition was really hoping anything other than this while openly courting US support. Also, to be fair, the comment I was responding to earlier referred to the Venezuelan opposition as a US puppet. I think that effectively concedes this point anyway.
  - chrisjj 10mo ago
    I suggested evidence. Your mere assumption is somewhat short of evidence.
    - monerozcash 10mo ago
      I don't think I've stated anything that requires evidence, but please feel free to be more specific.
      - chrisjj 10mo ago
        Again, your "if they were invited in by what they consider to be representatives of the legitimate government".
        monerozcash 10mo ago
        What part of that do you think requires evidence? The US has been very public about who they consider to have won the previous elections, and the opposition has been very public in their lobbying for foreign intervention in Venezuela.

saubeidl 10mo ago

It doesn't matter what Americans consider to be the representatives of the legitimate government. Maduro was the legitimate government, American wishful thinking is just another affront to Venezuelan sovereignty.

monerozcash 10mo ago
>It doesn't matter what Americans consider to be the representatives of the legitimate government. Really? I thought the US just arrested Maduro. To me, that seems like something that would matter. >Maduro was the legitimate government, American wishful thinking is just another affront to Venezuelan sovereignty. Can you actually try to explain why? Can you explain why a reasonable person looking at this from the outside should arrive at the conclusion that "Maduro was the legitimate government"?
- brahma-dev 10mo ago
  The same way any reasonable person thinks Trump is the government of US of A, regardless of his affinity to scammers, pedophiles or Russia. Wishful thinking does not change facts.
  - monerozcash 10mo ago
    No, I don't think anyone seriously doubts whether or not Trump actually won the elections after which he was appointed president. The same however is not true of Maduro, where "Maduro did not actually get sufficient votes to win the latest election" is a pretty commonly held view backed by evidence. You might reasonably doubt the veracity of that evidence, but directly comparing Maduro's position with that of Trump is simply ridiculous.
    - brahma-dev 10mo ago
      That's what I said. Yes it's a fact and not merely a commonly held view that Trump's campaign had Russian actors, but reasonable people still consider him President, and not a puppet placed by Putin.
      - monerozcash 10mo ago
        > Yes it's a fact and not merely a commonly held view that Trump's campaign had Russian actors, but reasonable people still consider him President Yes, because that in no way invalidates the election results. I really don't see how this is in any way comparable or relevant. > and not a puppet placed by Putin. Trump being a puppet placed by Putin would not invalidate his presidency.
        brahma-dev 10mo ago
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        monerozcash 10mo ago
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        brahma-dev 10mo ago
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  - deleted 10mo ago
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- saubeidl 10mo ago
  > Really? I thought the US just arrested Maduro. To me, that seems like something that would matter. You can't arrest a foreign head of state in a country where you have no jurisdiction. You can only kidnap them, as a rogue state. Do you think Iran should be able to arrest Trump because they don't consider him legitimate? International law isn't "I don't like you, so I will 'arrest' you". It's rules that all countries are bound by and that the US is breaking - making themselves a rogue state on the same level as North Korea. > Can you actually try to explain why? Can you explain why a reasonable person looking at this from the outside should arrive at the conclusion that "Maduro was the legitimate government"? Because he led Venezuela, that's what makes him the government of Venezuela. Any judgement on legitimacy is reserved to the Venezuelan people, not far-right oligarchs (who the US government considers the "legitimate government" since they'll make for nice puppets as they rob the place), not foreign dictators like Trump.
  - monerozcash 10mo ago
    > Any judgement on legitimacy is reserved to the Venezuelan people The whole point is that the Venezuelan people have supposedly voted for Edmundo González and not Maduro.
    - saubeidl 10mo ago
      According to... Edmundo Gonzalez and the US.
      - monerozcash 10mo ago
        Hey, sure. I guess you could add EU states and most Latin American countries to that list too. My point all along has been that in the end this probably depends entirely on who you believe about the elections.

chrisjj 10mo ago

> I think to begin with you'll have to actually present the argument as to why Maduro should be considered the legitimate leader of Venezuela I think first your evidence for "they were invited in by what they consider to be representatives of the legitimate government".

monerozcash 10mo ago
I think it's not an unreasonable assumption to start from that the US government is working in collusion with the opposition it openly backs in Venezuela? It also feels silly to imagine that Venezuelan opposition was really hoping anything other than this while openly courting US support. Also, to be fair, the comment I was responding to earlier referred to the Venezuelan opposition as a US puppet. I think that effectively concedes this point anyway.
- chrisjj 10mo ago
  I suggested evidence. Your mere assumption is somewhat short of evidence.
  - monerozcash 10mo ago
    I don't think I've stated anything that requires evidence, but please feel free to be more specific.
    - chrisjj 10mo ago
      Again, your "if they were invited in by what they consider to be representatives of the legitimate government".
      - monerozcash 10mo ago
        What part of that do you think requires evidence? The US has been very public about who they consider to have won the previous elections, and the opposition has been very public in their lobbying for foreign intervention in Venezuela.