7 ms·
How does this differ from Russia invading Ukraine? We have to wake up to the world where USA no longer cares about ideals like liberal democracy or allies, but
by StefanBatory 10mo ago
How does this differ from Russia invading Ukraine?
We have to wake up to the world where USA no longer cares about ideals like liberal democracy or allies, but is a warmongering corporatist autocracy.
- computerex 10mo agoIt’s not any different. I have totally lost my faith in America as an American.
- 4gotunameagain 10mo agoNow you did ? You should've been keeping scores on US' wars and regime changes, you'd had lost faith long time ago.
- cosmicgadget 10mo agoWell considering Taiwan's independence and Putin's absolute obsession over NATO, it seems like the score ought to reflect the whole story. I'm not saying it's great, but it's gotta be better than historical comparables.
- 4gotunameagain 10mo agoI am against China attacking Taiwan, I am against Russia attacking Ukraine, but I am also against Ukraine wanting to join NATO. The war started because of NATO and the US, and it almost fucked us over here in Germany when the US helped the Ukrainians blow up Nord Stream. I am against any offensive action which leads to the misery and impoverishment of people, for some stupid power games of power hungry idiots.
- wiseowise 10mo ago> The war started because of NATO and the US "Bro please just look at the expansion map. I swear bro the war started because of NATO and the US. It’s not an invasion bro it’s a forced reaction to unipolar hegemony. Just one more provocation and the bear had to bite back. Please bro just admit it's a proxy war. I promise bro if the West just stayed out of the sphere of influence everything would be fine."
- 4gotunameagain 10mo agoDo you have anything of substance to add ? This tribalism that you display is exactly the reason that we end up in situations that we have. Do not pledge tribal allegiance to anyone. Pledge allegiance to critical thinking.
- wiseowise 10mo ago> This tribalism > The war started because of NATO and US Hmm…
- cosmicgadget 10mo agoI am sorry, you are blaming the United States for Russia invading Ukraine? Because Ukraine wanted to join a defensive alliance to protect themselves from a country that invaded them in 2014 and tried to keep their puppet in power before Maidan punted him? Hilarious.
- 4gotunameagain 10mo agoDo you think it is realistic that a (relatively) small country next to a superpower seeks protection from the rival superpower ? What would happen if panama wanted to join a defence pact with Russia ? What happened during the Cuban missile crisis ? I wish all countries could be independent and free of meddling from superpowers. But at some moment you have to be realistic.
- cosmicgadget 10mo ago> Do you think it is realistic that a (relatively) small country next to a superpower seeks protection from the rival superpower ? Like the Baltics, Poland, Taiwan, South Korea, Berlin, ... Yeah seems pretty realistic. > What would happen if panama wanted to join a defence pact with Russia ? Russia or a defensive alliance that includes countries like Germany and France? > What happened during the Cuban missile crisis ? A bunch of cold war nonsense? Russia tried to station first strike weapons and the US responded poorly. > I wish all countries could be independent and free of meddling from superpowers. But at some moment you have to be realistic. Lmao and that is why you conclude that Ukraine should not be permitted to seek a defensive ally after being invaded (2014).
- m000 10mo agoIt's so much easier to keep score these days. Up until the 90s, you were tube-fed the news from your TV (pun intended). You would have to go out of your way to read anything contrary to the sanctioned narrative or to see the effects of your country's policies and actions. These days everything is live-streamed. So, anyone with an inquiring mind can lookup different sources and make their own conclusions. But I fear this won't be for long. It is slowly becoming clear that the AI rally is less about productivity and more about mass surveillance and controlling online dissent globally [1]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1dz0g2ykpeo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1dz0g2ykpeo
- cosmicgadget 10mo agoWe won't know for a while but I don't imagine there will be mass civilian graves, abducted children, or the intent to annex the country. This is probably more about oil and deposing Maduro.
- StefanBatory 10mo ago"This isn't about conquering Ukraine, it's about coal and removing Nazi Żeleński from power"
- epistasis 10mo agoPutin has always been very clear about conquering Ukraine and eliminating anything Ukrainian, including its statehood. Tons of public writing, won't shut up about his fake history of the region, etc. Putin is as clear about his intentions as Hitler was about his intentions.
- GordonS 10mo agoCould you point to some sources please? Every time I see Putin talk on Ukraine, he clearly expresses the very opposite, so I'd like to see where he's said otherwise.
- mikkupikku 10mo agoI can't honestly claim to have paid attention to the whole interview and followed all of his rambling, but he seemed to express in the Tucker interview that he views Ukraine as traditional/rightful Russian territory. Tucker was trying to lead Putin into the claim that the invasion was prompted by NATO doing NATO things (which is the talking point favored by right-aligned American commenters, who want to somehow blame Obama/Biden foreign policy for the war), but Putin just wanted to talk about shit that happened centuries ago.
- cosmicgadget 10mo ago
- eternauta3k 10mo ago> How does this differ from Russia invading Ukraine? Cynically: maybe Venezuela will get a bit less sympathy because it's a somewhat shittier (see emigration numbers) and less democratic government than Ukraine's. And I suspect we have a more positive view of US troops than Russian troops, despite everything (Abu Ghraib is seen as an aberration and not as the normal way of working).
- SpicyLemonZest 10mo agoEmphasizing that I’m not defending this war at all, but one key difference I’m extremely confident in is that the US will not attempt to annex its favorite regions of Venezuela.
- biggestlou 10mo agoAbsolutely no reason to believe that
- wood_spirit 10mo agodo you think that a pro US replacement regime in Venezuela will get US backing and support for it’s claims to eastern Guyana?
- SpicyLemonZest 10mo agoNo. I suppose I’m less confident in that, but I still don’t think it’s very likely. The American oil companies with contracts in Guyana would certainly be unhappy about it and it’s not clear what political benefit anyone in the US could hope to gain.
- hvb2 10mo agoIt doesn't care about regions. There's a lot of precedent for annexing resources though. Let's see if some american company is granted all kinds of rights to Venezuelan oil in the end. Which, if it happens, should really be treated as blood oil like blood diamonds are and then sanctioned by the world
- int_19h 10mo agoFWIW Russia was initially quite happy with "independent" Ukraine provided that their guy Yanukovich was in charge. It was only when he was ousted that they switched to open invasion tactics. So from that perspective, I don't think US is really much different, just better at keeping its own puppets in power.
- SpicyLemonZest 10mo ago
- biggestlou 10mo agoUkraine didn’t hold an election in which the results were simply ignored by the leader in power
- aqme28 10mo agoSeems like a thin reason to invade a country
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago> a thin reason to invade a country No invasion (yet). Just bombing.
- aqme28 10mo agoWe have at the absolute very least, invaded Venezuelan airspace.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago> We have at the absolute very least, invaded Venezuelan airspace This is not a useful delineation for what constitutes a military invasion. Invasion means landing troops and controlling territory.
- aqme28 10mo agoWhy am I seeing footage of Chinooks if it's only a bombing? Those are troop-carriers.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago> Why am I seeing footage of Chinooks if it's only a bombing? Those are troop-carriers Based on what we're being told now, this was an extraction. (Slash detention. Slash kidnapping. In any case, requiring troop transport and extraction.)
- whatever1 10mo agoFor one the whole country of Ukraine is fighting like hell for almost 4 years following the orders of their elected government to defend their country. If Russia was on the right, the people of Ukraine would have just hanged Zelenskyy and his gov, instead of sending their children to the meat grinder. Let’s see if Venezuelans will put their lives on the line to protect the regime.
- rightbyte 10mo agoMilitary police are forcefully abducting people on the streets by now. Fighting the power of the state is not something that just happens.
- whatever1 10mo agoMilitary (or part of) can (and historically does) initiate a coup. If civilians are also on board the gov is over in hours. Coups typically fail when people are not on the same page. Turkey is a great example. Heck Putin also had Wagner knocking his door in Moscow.
- lII1lIlI11ll 10mo ago> How does this differ from Russia invading Ukraine? As a Ukrainian I would assume US forces don't intend to conduct a campaign of mass murder, rape and looting, and US government overall doesn't plan genocide and erasure of national identity of Venezuela together with annexation of its territories?
- lanternfish 10mo agoSee: Panama, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.
- lII1lIlI11ll 10mo agoOP's question was about how the current Russian invasion of Ukraine is different, not about some grand total score of infractions by major powers in 20th century. Overall I find this opinion of many western liberals that it is only fair for Russia to murder some Ukrainians, loot their homes and rape their women because US did some bad things before quite perplexing.
- lanternfish 10mo agoThat wasn't my point. My specific argument is about US operational policy on the ground in similar engagements. Based on precident, we would expect them to engage in the behavior the commentor indicts. I dream that neither of these imperial powers - Russia or the US - will be allowed to inflict imperial violence, but I wouldn't be mistaken and assume that this military action will be any different than, say, JSOC in Iraq.
- lII1lIlI11ll 10mo agoDo you expect US soldiers to systematically loot homes on occupied territories? Or arbitrary murder anyone speaking language they don't like or found to be subscribed to Telegram channels they don't approve of on mass scale? Do the US plan to conduct genocide and annex Venezuela in your opinion? The conduct of VSRF in Ukraine could perhaps be compared to the US conduct in Vietnam but definitely not in Iraq.
- Mikhail_Edoshin 10mo ago[flagged]
- int_19h 10mo agoCountries that "defend itself" don't annex territories of other countries.
- Mikhail_Edoshin 10mo agoOffensive aggression has certain leeway; it can be covert so that the aggressor can deny the very fact of aggression. West likes that position very much; it suits its lying nature. Defensive aggression has no such freedom: here the aggression has to be visible.
- int_19h 10mo agoI was born and grew up in Russia, and all my life I heard people like you telling us that NATO is going to invade any time now. Maybe it's time for you to wake up and realize that this was never a threat to begin with, just a justification for bullying others.
- Mikhail_Edoshin 10mo agoNATO is invading. They just don't do it overtly. You don't think those Chechen "freedom fighters" were, like, independent? It was USA all along. It was not a mistake, some leftover from Cold War or something, some project they forget to close now when Soviet Union broke. It was the policy all the time. There is no way to somehow negotiate it to stop short of surrendering. We have to fight. We do not want to, but there is no other option. Recently there was a terrorist attack on a concert hall in Moscow and about 150 people were killed. The actual attackers were rather simple-minded Tajik people. No way they could plan such an attack themselves. You do realize that there was someone else? "A quiet American"? (Or maybe a British; doesn't matter.) Some timidly looking guy visited that concert hall before that attack, walked around and made notes. He noted, for example, whether the finishing materials were flammable. He did that reconnaissance in several places and finally picked that concert hall. That fellow belongs to a group that does this kind of things. They have something like a list of cases, teaching materials and lectures. You don't see such people in the news; but they surely do exist. This is how a modern Western invasion looks like.
- big-and-small 10mo ago> How does this differ from Russia invading Ukraine? Cynically it's different in that Trump hopefully will not going to kill 220,000+ and leave 500,000+ war invalids of US military personnel in process. Though you never know...
- DecoySalamander 10mo agoAnother difference that has not been mentioned in other comments is that: The US is not completely delusional about its military capabilities and could actually complete this invasion in three days. In fact, it may already be over, as Maduro have been captured.
- meindnoch 10mo agoA surgical strike that was over before the news broke out vs. a 4-year campaign of plundering with literal criminals, press-ganged foreigners, and chechen blocking detachments, featuring mass rape, executed civilians, abduction and forced reeducation of thousands of children, gross mistreatment of PoW, etc. Hmmmm... indeed, hard to tell the difference!
- _pferreir_ 10mo agoIt does differ, in ways that many others listed below. That doesn't make it any legitimate, though.
- stackedinserter 10mo agoRussia's goal is to destroy Ukraine as nation and a country, because there's no "Ukrainians", there's no "Ukrainian language", and every country that speaks Russian should be controlled by Russian tsar. That's why they don't care and demolish ("liberate") Ukraine, town after town. Do US do/want the same for Venezuela?
- conradojordan 10mo ago"We have to wake up to the world where USA no longer cares about <thing USA has never cared about>, but is a <things USA has always been>"