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In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, th

In my opinion, Meditation and Mindfullness are not the same thing. Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent, the breath slows waaaay down, the heartbeat slows waaaay down. Slowly ever so slowly, some bliss starts to bubble up from within. It is the climax of one pointed attention. Few people who say they "meditate" are reaching that point since it requires years of sincere effort. In Yoga, meditation is known as Dhyana, or the state resulting from the mind becoming one pointed for 100 seconds. Samadhi, which is considered a state of deep bliss is considered reached when the mind becomes completely still for 1000 seconds. Mindfullness, is the act of being more aware during daily activities. Like watching actions and interactions. There is a gradual tendency to modify behavior to being more calm, collected and centered which helps to go deeper when attempting to meditate. The mind is still active during mindfullness, but it is being directed or corrected as needed throughout the day. Meditation helps to develop deeper Mindfullness and vice versa. Meditation is like taking a shower, whereas Mindfullness is avoiding rolling in the mud and getting dirty. It is important to keep in mind that Meditation is literally a state where the mind is free from thought and that all the "meditation practices and techniques" are just different paths of reaching that same place.

eightbitman 14y ago
You are incorrect, but my fees are pretty steep, and I accept cash only, so I can't explain it to you here.
zupreme 14y ago
This is simply incorrect. There are many different types of meditation with many different types of goals. Some meditation disciplines involve slowing the breath down, while others involve speeding the breath up (research Breath of Fire). Some meditation disciplines involve quieting the mind and ignoring stimuli, while others involve opening the floodgates of sensation to more fully experience stimuli (research Vipassana). The reality is that almost no single person can say what is and is not meditation because meditation comes in many different forms, in many different traditions, from many different sources. Anyone who arrogates to him or herself the authority to say what is and is not meditation is regrettably mistaken.
- up_and_up 14y ago
  Thanks for your comment. I agree that 'Meditation' means many things to many people. Thus, I started my comment above with "In my opinion" which makes the whole comment subjective to my experience. The definition I give above, refers to the Patanjali Yoga Sutra definition of Dhyana, which is essentially an extremely old technical document related to meditation and yoga. Something to consider, is that there seems to be some confusion on this thread between meditative practices and meditative states etc. This would be like comparing the act of drinking a lot of alcohol with the drunkenness that results. There are many different types of alcohol and varying means of consuming it but that state that results from its consumption is somewhat common to most people. In my comment above, I was referring to Meditation as a state of consciousness where the sense organs and mind become highly introverted. In that state the mind slows way down and comes to a stop.
prawks 14y ago
If one were looking to get into Meditation, what is a good way of going about it? Preferably a DIY way if possible, but if a class is really the way to go that's okay. When you say years of sincere effort, are you talking devoting a full-time job's worth of time, or just keeping a routine? I've been interested in meditation for a while, but it seems whenever I try and dig around I get completely lost in literature and terms and fail to see a proper starting point. I'm not looking to go crazy, I like the idea of Mindfullness and having a better understanding of how to control the ebb and flow of your thoughts.
- robertp 14y ago
  Ive been working with a personal coach recently and at the start of each session we start with a guided 2-3 minutes of mediation practice. One way to do on your own is with mp3's and doing on your own. Really from my personal experience thats not expert driven at all, even doing 5 minutes a day before you day starts is a great way to start for weeks or months on end. Just those 5 minutes of calm and awareness can do a lot, it has for me.
- up_and_up 14y ago
  Thanks for the question. I started with DIY meditation. I got a couple of books, mainly the techniques were repeating some phrase, focusing on the breath etc. This was okay for me to start. But I have been working with a teacher for about 12 years, which really helped. There are lots of different types of meditation, some with religious or spiritual undertones and others that are completely outside all that. Find a style that you vibe with based on what you think/believe and run with that. By "years of sincere effort" I mean practicing daily. 20-30 mins is probably enough to start. I would compare it to playing an instrument. Daily practice is pretty essential.
- webwanderings 14y ago
  As part of my DYI, I would drop the guilt of not being able to go the traditional route. Being mindful, staying in here-now, is not easy either and it may not work for you well, but it is something one can try quiet easily at any given moment. When you walk, observe. When you eat, observe and only eat. Taste the food and only eat. So on and so forth. I believe this is the best DIY of meditation, though not everyone agrees that being mindfulness is meditation, but I tend to think that it IS meditation and not necessarily mindfulness, because the goal of being in here-now is to eliminate the distraction of past/future and not really to concentrate. However, on the other hand, the typical meditation techniques (of mantra or other types) would want you to concentrate on something.
webwanderings 14y ago
The mindfulness, which I called meditation below, is sort of a way to say that you - any average individual - can get on the path of blissfulness without waiting for, or waiting to start the path of meditation (of your example). It really all boils down to each individual and their capacity of how they wish to learn. Some people can easily start the meditation (of any type beginning with what the author describe in the source, of breathing exercises) to mantra meditation to anything else. However, if the above methods does not come easily to you, you can still meditate by being in here-now (what you describe as mindfulness). The point is, that we don't have to be dogmatic about meditation and everyone can easily and equally get on the path of bliss and self-improvement in all walks of life. For far too long, the traditional culture has sort of relegated the arts and artists to the lower pole of meaningful life. What is being suggested here is that either you can plainly observe the sun rising, or you can take pride in your singing or painting....all of these artistic self-expressions give you containment which leads to blissfulness...something an average meditator of various type would achieve by sitting idle or concentrating as their practice. The more one stays in here-now, the more the mind sheds the distractions, the more there is bliss.
Hari_Seldon 14y ago
I think that there is a tendency amongst us westerners to believe that meditation is about attaining something, Chögyam Trungpa described this as a type of "spiritual materialism". I've noticed this behaviour repeatedly, people feeling the need to quantify theirs and others progress or lack thereof. If the writer of the TFA experiences 4 seconds of emptying his mind and a state of bliss, does it really matter that he didn't in your opinion use the correct terminology? or wasn't in the state long enough for this or that term to apply? I enjoyed the article, it has inspired me to take up my own practise again, even 1 second of no thoughts and blissful awareness at the beginning of my day changes everything.
- joelthelion 14y ago
  >I think that there is a tendency amongst us westerners to believe that meditation is about attaining something Of course there is. It's the only rational reason to do something: for present or future benefit. Otherwise you quit the realm of reason and enter the domain of religion.
  - davidtanner 14y ago
    That is what many Westerners, especially those here on HN, miss. Meditation is expressly a religious/spiritual tool. It's a technology of the sacred in the same way that visionary plants and chemicals are. In fact visionary plants can be a very effective preview/shortcut of the end goals a meditator wishes to reach.The point of meditation is to quiet the mind so that one can know God* *Where here "God" means an experiential state of nondual, atemporal awareness radically different from our normal states of waking and dreaming.
ncarroll 14y ago
Hmm, if you are timing the experience in order to categorize it later, is your mind, maybe, not empty?
specialist 14y ago
> Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent That wasn't my experience. I tried very hard to attain that "no thought" state. At best, I was able to let my thoughts flow without holding on to them. I concluded that silent mind thing is an analogy. The opposite of "don't think of a pink elephant" causes you to think of a pink elephant. When you have "no thought" you just let the thought come and go without trying to process (consider, internalize, whatever) it. But I haven't compared notes with others, gurus, whomever. YMMV.
- up_and_up 14y ago
  "I concluded that silent mind thing is an analogy" Thanks for the comment, I can definitely concur that stopping the mind is not easy. When I started running, I would have told you that for me, running a 5 minute mile was probably impossible. After training a bit, I was able to achieve it consistently. But a key thing to keep in mind, is that I had a coach and other teammates to train with. This helped me believe I could reach goal and gave me the tools to do so. I think you can probably get the analogy here.

eightbitman 14y ago

You are incorrect, but my fees are pretty steep, and I accept cash only, so I can't explain it to you here.

zupreme 14y ago

This is simply incorrect. There are many different types of meditation with many different types of goals. Some meditation disciplines involve slowing the breath down, while others involve speeding the breath up (research Breath of Fire). Some meditation disciplines involve quieting the mind and ignoring stimuli, while others involve opening the floodgates of sensation to more fully experience stimuli (research Vipassana). The reality is that almost no single person can say what is and is not meditation because meditation comes in many different forms, in many different traditions, from many different sources. Anyone who arrogates to him or herself the authority to say what is and is not meditation is regrettably mistaken.

up_and_up 14y ago
Thanks for your comment. I agree that 'Meditation' means many things to many people. Thus, I started my comment above with "In my opinion" which makes the whole comment subjective to my experience. The definition I give above, refers to the Patanjali Yoga Sutra definition of Dhyana, which is essentially an extremely old technical document related to meditation and yoga. Something to consider, is that there seems to be some confusion on this thread between meditative practices and meditative states etc. This would be like comparing the act of drinking a lot of alcohol with the drunkenness that results. There are many different types of alcohol and varying means of consuming it but that state that results from its consumption is somewhat common to most people. In my comment above, I was referring to Meditation as a state of consciousness where the sense organs and mind become highly introverted. In that state the mind slows way down and comes to a stop.

prawks 14y ago

If one were looking to get into Meditation, what is a good way of going about it? Preferably a DIY way if possible, but if a class is really the way to go that's okay. When you say years of sincere effort, are you talking devoting a full-time job's worth of time, or just keeping a routine? I've been interested in meditation for a while, but it seems whenever I try and dig around I get completely lost in literature and terms and fail to see a proper starting point. I'm not looking to go crazy, I like the idea of Mindfullness and having a better understanding of how to control the ebb and flow of your thoughts.

robertp 14y ago
Ive been working with a personal coach recently and at the start of each session we start with a guided 2-3 minutes of mediation practice. One way to do on your own is with mp3's and doing on your own. Really from my personal experience thats not expert driven at all, even doing 5 minutes a day before you day starts is a great way to start for weeks or months on end. Just those 5 minutes of calm and awareness can do a lot, it has for me.
up_and_up 14y ago
Thanks for the question. I started with DIY meditation. I got a couple of books, mainly the techniques were repeating some phrase, focusing on the breath etc. This was okay for me to start. But I have been working with a teacher for about 12 years, which really helped. There are lots of different types of meditation, some with religious or spiritual undertones and others that are completely outside all that. Find a style that you vibe with based on what you think/believe and run with that. By "years of sincere effort" I mean practicing daily. 20-30 mins is probably enough to start. I would compare it to playing an instrument. Daily practice is pretty essential.
webwanderings 14y ago
As part of my DYI, I would drop the guilt of not being able to go the traditional route. Being mindful, staying in here-now, is not easy either and it may not work for you well, but it is something one can try quiet easily at any given moment. When you walk, observe. When you eat, observe and only eat. Taste the food and only eat. So on and so forth. I believe this is the best DIY of meditation, though not everyone agrees that being mindfulness is meditation, but I tend to think that it IS meditation and not necessarily mindfulness, because the goal of being in here-now is to eliminate the distraction of past/future and not really to concentrate. However, on the other hand, the typical meditation techniques (of mantra or other types) would want you to concentrate on something.

webwanderings 14y ago

The mindfulness, which I called meditation below, is sort of a way to say that you - any average individual - can get on the path of blissfulness without waiting for, or waiting to start the path of meditation (of your example). It really all boils down to each individual and their capacity of how they wish to learn. Some people can easily start the meditation (of any type beginning with what the author describe in the source, of breathing exercises) to mantra meditation to anything else. However, if the above methods does not come easily to you, you can still meditate by being in here-now (what you describe as mindfulness). The point is, that we don't have to be dogmatic about meditation and everyone can easily and equally get on the path of bliss and self-improvement in all walks of life. For far too long, the traditional culture has sort of relegated the arts and artists to the lower pole of meaningful life. What is being suggested here is that either you can plainly observe the sun rising, or you can take pride in your singing or painting....all of these artistic self-expressions give you containment which leads to blissfulness...something an average meditator of various type would achieve by sitting idle or concentrating as their practice. The more one stays in here-now, the more the mind sheds the distractions, the more there is bliss.

Hari_Seldon 14y ago

I think that there is a tendency amongst us westerners to believe that meditation is about attaining something, Chögyam Trungpa described this as a type of "spiritual materialism". I've noticed this behaviour repeatedly, people feeling the need to quantify theirs and others progress or lack thereof. If the writer of the TFA experiences 4 seconds of emptying his mind and a state of bliss, does it really matter that he didn't in your opinion use the correct terminology? or wasn't in the state long enough for this or that term to apply? I enjoyed the article, it has inspired me to take up my own practise again, even 1 second of no thoughts and blissful awareness at the beginning of my day changes everything.

joelthelion 14y ago
>I think that there is a tendency amongst us westerners to believe that meditation is about attaining something Of course there is. It's the only rational reason to do something: for present or future benefit. Otherwise you quit the realm of reason and enter the domain of religion.
- davidtanner 14y ago
  That is what many Westerners, especially those here on HN, miss. Meditation is expressly a religious/spiritual tool. It's a technology of the sacred in the same way that visionary plants and chemicals are. In fact visionary plants can be a very effective preview/shortcut of the end goals a meditator wishes to reach.The point of meditation is to quiet the mind so that one can know God* *Where here "God" means an experiential state of nondual, atemporal awareness radically different from our normal states of waking and dreaming.

ncarroll 14y ago

Hmm, if you are timing the experience in order to categorize it later, is your mind, maybe, not empty?

specialist 14y ago

> Meditation is a state, where the mind is completely silent That wasn't my experience. I tried very hard to attain that "no thought" state. At best, I was able to let my thoughts flow without holding on to them. I concluded that silent mind thing is an analogy. The opposite of "don't think of a pink elephant" causes you to think of a pink elephant. When you have "no thought" you just let the thought come and go without trying to process (consider, internalize, whatever) it. But I haven't compared notes with others, gurus, whomever. YMMV.

up_and_up 14y ago
"I concluded that silent mind thing is an analogy" Thanks for the comment, I can definitely concur that stopping the mind is not easy. When I started running, I would have told you that for me, running a 5 minute mile was probably impossible. After training a bit, I was able to achieve it consistently. But a key thing to keep in mind, is that I had a coach and other teammates to train with. This helped me believe I could reach goal and gave me the tools to do so. I think you can probably get the analogy here.