5 ms·

Just a quick point as an American living in Denmark, one of the reasons government programs like this work so well is everything is delivered digitally. We have

Just a quick point as an American living in Denmark, one of the reasons government programs like this work so well is everything is delivered digitally. We have "e-boks" https://en.digst.dk/systems/digital-post/about-the-national-digital-post/ https://en.digst.dk/systems/digital-post/about-the-national-... official government facilitated inboxes so when they need to notify you of vaccinations or whatever else, it arrives to your inbox. And basically 100% of residents use these systems.

Muromec 9mo ago
[flagged]
- nathanaldensr 9mo ago
  In high-trust societies these things work, yes. Not all societies are high-trust. Often, they once were high-trust but are no longer thanks to sociopathic, non-empathetic actors.
  - emil-lp 9mo ago
    > Often, they once were high-trust but are no longer thanks to sociopathic, non-empathetic actors. Citation needed.
    - Forgeties79 9mo ago
      Trump rode to the White House pitching that the government is broken/corrupt and as an outsider he would fix it. A significant part of his appeal is that he was a big middle finger to the establishment and current system writ large. This is well studied, documented, and easy to see in our daily lives. How many campaign ads begin with “the system is broken” or “Washington is out of touch”? Nobody ever lost voters for saying the government isn’t doing enough for them and isn’t trustworthy. You can look at any Gallup or Pew poll or whatever sources you prefer and you will likely see that Americans have been steadily losing trust in their government. It has been in steady decline since the post-war era with some notable brief increases, but they don’t last. >citation needed I disagree as it is incredibly easy information to track down. But here you go anyway: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/12/04/public-trust-in-government-1958-2025/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/12/04/public-trust...
      - arowthway 9mo ago
        Obviously social trust in the US has declined and Trump benefited from that. But this is not evidence that the primary cause is sociopathic, non-empathetic actors. Theoretically it could also be things such as increased diversity, loss of shared identity, people acting in good faith but failing to adapt to social media.
        Forgeties79 9mo ago
        That’s fair. I focused on the broader question for some reason. I’ll blame it on morning brain. I’ll ask you this: Do you think Donald Trump is a socially adjusted, empathetic person? A lot of people like him currently because he is a bully. Edit: I think Nixon is another person whose character deserves scrutiny. His decisions shattered a lot of people‘s perception of the US government.
    - hagbard_c 9mo ago
      Go and look around in former high-trust societies where this trust has broken down or is breaking down - my points of reference are the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany and to a lesser extent the UK - and you'll get your citations. What you'll probably find is that in 'marginalised areas' people have trust in governmental institutions - those which provide social welfare, healthcare, schools and such - while they have little trust in 'other (groups of) people'. In other words they trust the state but distrust their neighbours, especially those from different ethnic groups. If you look in more well-to-do areas you'll find the opposite: people mostly trust their neighbours but they have lost trust in the higher echelons of the state which in their eyes has been instrumental in the dissolution of their former high-trust society. They'll still mostly trust their local police and fire brigade but they see academia and the social workers and soft-on-crime judicial institutions it produces as part of the problem. Any articles produced by academia which claim to provide proof of the opposite are seen in the light of the severe political bias in those institutions - sociology as a discipline has lost nearly all trust due to this - so citing those only feeds the fire.
      - tokai 9mo ago
        Sweden is not a society were trust has broken down. Neither is Germany. Maybe the Netherlands can be argued to have a breaking down of trust. Go look at actual data, and don't rely on racist internet memes to form your arguments.
        hagbard_c 9mo ago
        I said where this trust has broken down _or is breaking down_ - the latter is what is happening in the mentioned countries. First answer and you directly go to 'racism', that's a rather poor effort. Put some more thought into your replies if you want to be taken seriously.
        tokai 9mo ago
        I know you said or is breaking down. I'm telling you that its only for Netherlands you can argue a drop in trust. I'm sorry that you take the racist label as an insult. But the Sweden has fallen talking point is a racist lie, so don't perpetuate it if you don't want to be called out on it. Again I invite you to look at data on trust, and stop making stuff up.
  - throwawayqqq11 9mo ago
    Funny, how the unreasonable cycle of alternating votes for establishment parties is broken by voting for even more untrustworthy right wing parties. We all need something like ranked/list voting and incorporate invalid votes into the result so urgently.
    - Forgeties79 9mo ago
      I do think people put too much stock in how many things RCV would fix in the US, but I am a big fan of it and it would certainly be a big first step improving representation in this country. Unfortunately, multiple states (all Republican dominated) have already outlawed RCV as an option. So in order to do it you would have to overturn the existing ban as well. It’s ridiculous.
  - closewith 9mo ago
    High trust societies generally don't need centralisation to provide positive outcomes.
- closewith 9mo ago
  So should a desire for privacy preclude access to routine vaccination?
  - lostlogin 9mo ago
    How private are you wanting to be? If they don’t know your current status you’d get spammed all the time for various things. If you want full privacy you’d get no notifications and would have to go and ask for various things which you many not know exist.
tokai 9mo ago
I fail to see how e-boks makes this work. Younger people check their e-boks less frequently than average, so sending a physical letter to their address would work just as well if not better. What makes it work is the public registers.
- silvestrov 9mo ago
  e-boks sends a text message to the phone, so I see it much faster than a paper mail. e-boks is like gmail (and others) in that it keeps your old mail. So you can easily find old stuff, a great improvement on paper mail. I don't even check my physical mailbox once a week. Denmark is one of the very most digital countries. Physical mail is very much on the way out. We no longer has mailboxes to send mail, you have to go to a shop to send letters, which now cost at last $6 per letter due to the low amount of mail sent. It is only a matter of less than 10 years before letters will be fully gone.
  - tokai 9mo ago
    Thats all besides the point. Which was that e-boks is not making vaccine programs possible or successful.
    - array_key_first 9mo ago
      I think it certainly helps, although of course anything is possible without anything.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    6€ for a letter that's ridiculous.. wow
    - robocat 9mo ago
      Low delivery costs need high volume (economies of scale). As number of deliveries per address drops, the delivery costs trend towards the same price as small package delivery.
  - 9mo ago
closewith 9mo ago
Okay, well Ireland has similar vaccination rates, broader childhood vaccination coverage, and no central medical records at all, so while e-boks may assist administration, it's certainly not necessary.
- disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
  > no central medical records at all Which is bad, we definitely should have them. Referral data appears to be managed through Healthlink, which may just be a privatised not always used medical record system.
  - closewith 9mo ago
    I'm a proponent of EHRs but not necessarily of centralised medical records, which have not been shown to improve outcomes and which do impose serious privacy risks on patients. HealthLink is a messaging system and stores no EHRs at all. eHealth is the National EHR programme aiming to roll out EHRs by 2030 nationwide. It will be a no-opt-out centralised EHR and combined social care record.
    - disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
      > HealthLink is a messaging system and stores no EHRs at all. eHealth is the National EHR programme aiming to roll out EHRs by 2030 nationwide. This is bad (from my perspective, as someone who's moved a lot and thus has medical records scattered all over). > It will be a no-opt-out centralised EHR and combined social care record. This is probably the right approach, even though I'm sceptical that it will be delivered effectively.
wojciii 9mo ago
This HPV vaccine was part of the children vaccination program (børnevaccinationsprogram) which kindly asks the parents to vaccinate their children. While we have some anivaxxers here in DK, most people (90%, I believe) are sane and follow the recommendations. The vaccinations start while the children are small and continue while they grow up .. the last one is when they are 12.5 years old. The notifications are delivered in eboks or by mail if you don't want to use eboks. Everything from the state is delivered like this. There is nothing special about how the information is delivered. The SMS/e-mail notifications are just about hwo sent you something and not about what it is. At least for me. I don't see how the use of eboks makes this work better. It would work just as well without eboks. People listen to doctors and the MAGA like shitheads we do have don't have a lot of influence.
- coreyh14444 9mo ago
  This is why I posted it from the perspective as an American. We don't have anything remotely comparable. Vaccinations are delivered by private doctors and public schools often require vaccinations or exemptions but the system works entirely differently. If you homeschooled your kids and if your doctor didn't mention it, you'd never even know that vaccinations were available.

Muromec 9mo ago

[flagged]

nathanaldensr 9mo ago
In high-trust societies these things work, yes. Not all societies are high-trust. Often, they once were high-trust but are no longer thanks to sociopathic, non-empathetic actors.
- emil-lp 9mo ago
  > Often, they once were high-trust but are no longer thanks to sociopathic, non-empathetic actors. Citation needed.
  - Forgeties79 9mo ago
    Trump rode to the White House pitching that the government is broken/corrupt and as an outsider he would fix it. A significant part of his appeal is that he was a big middle finger to the establishment and current system writ large. This is well studied, documented, and easy to see in our daily lives. How many campaign ads begin with “the system is broken” or “Washington is out of touch”? Nobody ever lost voters for saying the government isn’t doing enough for them and isn’t trustworthy. You can look at any Gallup or Pew poll or whatever sources you prefer and you will likely see that Americans have been steadily losing trust in their government. It has been in steady decline since the post-war era with some notable brief increases, but they don’t last. >citation needed I disagree as it is incredibly easy information to track down. But here you go anyway: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/12/04/public-trust-in-government-1958-2025/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/12/04/public-trust...
    - arowthway 9mo ago
      Obviously social trust in the US has declined and Trump benefited from that. But this is not evidence that the primary cause is sociopathic, non-empathetic actors. Theoretically it could also be things such as increased diversity, loss of shared identity, people acting in good faith but failing to adapt to social media.
      - Forgeties79 9mo ago
        That’s fair. I focused on the broader question for some reason. I’ll blame it on morning brain. I’ll ask you this: Do you think Donald Trump is a socially adjusted, empathetic person? A lot of people like him currently because he is a bully. Edit: I think Nixon is another person whose character deserves scrutiny. His decisions shattered a lot of people‘s perception of the US government.
  - hagbard_c 9mo ago
    Go and look around in former high-trust societies where this trust has broken down or is breaking down - my points of reference are the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany and to a lesser extent the UK - and you'll get your citations. What you'll probably find is that in 'marginalised areas' people have trust in governmental institutions - those which provide social welfare, healthcare, schools and such - while they have little trust in 'other (groups of) people'. In other words they trust the state but distrust their neighbours, especially those from different ethnic groups. If you look in more well-to-do areas you'll find the opposite: people mostly trust their neighbours but they have lost trust in the higher echelons of the state which in their eyes has been instrumental in the dissolution of their former high-trust society. They'll still mostly trust their local police and fire brigade but they see academia and the social workers and soft-on-crime judicial institutions it produces as part of the problem. Any articles produced by academia which claim to provide proof of the opposite are seen in the light of the severe political bias in those institutions - sociology as a discipline has lost nearly all trust due to this - so citing those only feeds the fire.
    - tokai 9mo ago
      Sweden is not a society were trust has broken down. Neither is Germany. Maybe the Netherlands can be argued to have a breaking down of trust. Go look at actual data, and don't rely on racist internet memes to form your arguments.
      - hagbard_c 9mo ago
        I said where this trust has broken down _or is breaking down_ - the latter is what is happening in the mentioned countries. First answer and you directly go to 'racism', that's a rather poor effort. Put some more thought into your replies if you want to be taken seriously.
        tokai 9mo ago
        I know you said or is breaking down. I'm telling you that its only for Netherlands you can argue a drop in trust. I'm sorry that you take the racist label as an insult. But the Sweden has fallen talking point is a racist lie, so don't perpetuate it if you don't want to be called out on it. Again I invite you to look at data on trust, and stop making stuff up.
- throwawayqqq11 9mo ago
  Funny, how the unreasonable cycle of alternating votes for establishment parties is broken by voting for even more untrustworthy right wing parties. We all need something like ranked/list voting and incorporate invalid votes into the result so urgently.
  - Forgeties79 9mo ago
    I do think people put too much stock in how many things RCV would fix in the US, but I am a big fan of it and it would certainly be a big first step improving representation in this country. Unfortunately, multiple states (all Republican dominated) have already outlawed RCV as an option. So in order to do it you would have to overturn the existing ban as well. It’s ridiculous.
- closewith 9mo ago
  High trust societies generally don't need centralisation to provide positive outcomes.
closewith 9mo ago
So should a desire for privacy preclude access to routine vaccination?
- lostlogin 9mo ago
  How private are you wanting to be? If they don’t know your current status you’d get spammed all the time for various things. If you want full privacy you’d get no notifications and would have to go and ask for various things which you many not know exist.

tokai 9mo ago

I fail to see how e-boks makes this work. Younger people check their e-boks less frequently than average, so sending a physical letter to their address would work just as well if not better. What makes it work is the public registers.

silvestrov 9mo ago
e-boks sends a text message to the phone, so I see it much faster than a paper mail. e-boks is like gmail (and others) in that it keeps your old mail. So you can easily find old stuff, a great improvement on paper mail. I don't even check my physical mailbox once a week. Denmark is one of the very most digital countries. Physical mail is very much on the way out. We no longer has mailboxes to send mail, you have to go to a shop to send letters, which now cost at last $6 per letter due to the low amount of mail sent. It is only a matter of less than 10 years before letters will be fully gone.
- tokai 9mo ago
  Thats all besides the point. Which was that e-boks is not making vaccine programs possible or successful.
  - array_key_first 9mo ago
    I think it certainly helps, although of course anything is possible without anything.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  6€ for a letter that's ridiculous.. wow
  - robocat 9mo ago
    Low delivery costs need high volume (economies of scale). As number of deliveries per address drops, the delivery costs trend towards the same price as small package delivery.
- 9mo ago

closewith 9mo ago

Okay, well Ireland has similar vaccination rates, broader childhood vaccination coverage, and no central medical records at all, so while e-boks may assist administration, it's certainly not necessary.

disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
> no central medical records at all Which is bad, we definitely should have them. Referral data appears to be managed through Healthlink, which may just be a privatised not always used medical record system.
- closewith 9mo ago
  I'm a proponent of EHRs but not necessarily of centralised medical records, which have not been shown to improve outcomes and which do impose serious privacy risks on patients. HealthLink is a messaging system and stores no EHRs at all. eHealth is the National EHR programme aiming to roll out EHRs by 2030 nationwide. It will be a no-opt-out centralised EHR and combined social care record.
  - disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
    > HealthLink is a messaging system and stores no EHRs at all. eHealth is the National EHR programme aiming to roll out EHRs by 2030 nationwide. This is bad (from my perspective, as someone who's moved a lot and thus has medical records scattered all over). > It will be a no-opt-out centralised EHR and combined social care record. This is probably the right approach, even though I'm sceptical that it will be delivered effectively.

wojciii 9mo ago

This HPV vaccine was part of the children vaccination program (børnevaccinationsprogram) which kindly asks the parents to vaccinate their children. While we have some anivaxxers here in DK, most people (90%, I believe) are sane and follow the recommendations. The vaccinations start while the children are small and continue while they grow up .. the last one is when they are 12.5 years old. The notifications are delivered in eboks or by mail if you don't want to use eboks. Everything from the state is delivered like this. There is nothing special about how the information is delivered. The SMS/e-mail notifications are just about hwo sent you something and not about what it is. At least for me. I don't see how the use of eboks makes this work better. It would work just as well without eboks. People listen to doctors and the MAGA like shitheads we do have don't have a lot of influence.

coreyh14444 9mo ago
This is why I posted it from the perspective as an American. We don't have anything remotely comparable. Vaccinations are delivered by private doctors and public schools often require vaccinations or exemptions but the system works entirely differently. If you homeschooled your kids and if your doctor didn't mention it, you'd never even know that vaccinations were available.