5 ms·

You can pretty much replace BYD with any Chinese company (and to some extent, almost any company in the world) and the sentence would still make sense. So I ha

by g947o 10mo ago

You can pretty much replace BYD with any Chinese company (and to some extent, almost any company in the world) and the sentence would still make sense. So I have mostly lost interest in the argument. Not that it is an incorrect or irrelevant argument, but none of that has really mattered.

gloryjulio 10mo ago
This. Most of the Chinese products met the definition of dumping. They over produce with suppressed wages, currency exchange rate, and government subsidies. The current generations of Chinese workers do not benefit from this. To clarify, they have top products, some are well paid. But the general trend is dumping. I am curious when will other countries would actually start of defend their industries properly.
- StopDisinfo910 10mo ago
  > They over produce with suppressed wages, currency exchange rate, and government subsidies I mean, so does Germany. Technically, the USA only has the massive subsidies part since the IRA came to be but they also have tariffs so, not doing too bad distortion-wise. At this point in time, pretty much everyone is already defending their industries. China is just playing its cards better than the others and with a head start when it comes to EV.
  - ericmay 10mo ago
    Tariffs aren’t the same thing as suppressing wages, overproduction, government subsidies, and managed currency to prevent deflation. In the case of the US with respect to China they are mostly a retaliation to the above anti-competitive practices. But I hear you on who is playing their cards better. I don’t think China is playing theirs very well. They pissed off both the US and EU, and even Mexico is enacting tariffs on Chinese products. American and European countries are taking action to stop Chinese anti-competitive practices. Nice factories you have there, too bad there’s nobody to sell those products to. I also don’t know what you mean when you say for example the US and Germany are suppressing wages. I’m interested in what you mean by that specifically.
    - eru 10mo ago
      What is 'overproduction'?
      - ericmay 10mo ago
        It depends, but in the case of China it’s producing Temu stuff (electronics that fail immediately, t-shirts that dissolve when washed, &c.) because they need to 1. Run other companies outside of China out of business, 2. Keep people employed even if what they produce is worth less than their labor and energy/materials input.
        eru 10mo ago
        People seem to like Temu stuff and want to buy it. > 1. Run other companies outside of China out of business Why? > 2. Keep people employed even if what they produce is worth less than their labor and energy/materials input. Why don't they have them do something with positive utility, like sweeping streets or providing elder care, or a myriad of other jobs?
        ericmay 10mo ago
        People like all sorts of dumb things. Temu and these cheap crap products have a lot of problems, and quality is only the tip of th4 iceberg. > Why? Are you asking why they’re doing it? > Why don't they have them do something with positive utility, like sweeping streets or providing elder care, or a myriad of other jobs? They do, but they need people to be working in manufacturing facilities too, otherwise the gig is up. You can’t have millions or tens of millions of people sweeping streets all day - better to give them the illusion that the future is better by having them build and ship products.
        eru 10mo ago
        > People like all sorts of dumb things. Temu and these cheap crap products have a lot of problems, and quality is only the tip of th4 iceberg. If people are buying it voluntarily, who are we to judge? Ice cream also only lasts a single use and is gone afterwards, and no one complains. > Are you asking why they’re doing it? Sorry, I should have quoted more. > because they need to 1. Run other companies outside of China out of business, Why do they 'need to' run other companies out of business? What need do they have? > They do, but they need people to be working in manufacturing facilities too, otherwise the gig is up. You can’t have millions or tens of millions of people sweeping streets all day - better to give them the illusion that the future is better by having them build and ship products. Maybe. Sweeping streets was but one example. There's lots of other positive utility things to do, even in manufacturing.
  - tooltalk 10mo ago
    >> I mean, so does Germany. How does German gov't subsidize their automakers' overcapacity? Their EV subsidies aren't/weren't exclusive to domestic EVs or EVs using certain domestic part. No issue with subsidies that are equally available to all eligible producers, domestic or foreign. This is unlike in China where market access and EV subsidies were conditioned on forced tech transfer since 2011 -- for which China was litigated before the WTO (see WT/DS549 China - Certain Measures on the Transfer of Technology). Or worse, conditioned on using local batteries made by local battery "champions," CATL/BYD/etc only to funnel all NEV subsidies back to the local battery industry and undermine foreign competitors. In other word, no NEV subsidies to any EV with foreign batteries to protect local "champions." This practice is also illegal under Article 3(b) "Prohibition" of the WTO's Subsidies and Countervailing Measures (SCM) Agreement. >> Technically, the USA only has the massive subsidies part since the ... Biden's IRA subsidy ended in September. And let's realistic, the IRA was a weak and short counter measure against China's illegal practices past 15 yeras.
- concinds 10mo ago
  Industry talking points, meant to convince you to subsidize them.
  - Retric 10mo ago
    You don’t need to subsidize domestic companies to adjust for currency exchange rate manipulation. The government could for example impose a tariff that covers half the difference thus maintaining an unfair advantage for Chinese companies. Thus profiting from the manipulation without placing excessive burden on domestic companies.
    - eggnet 10mo ago
      I assume you're joking, but this is just sales tax.
      - Retric 10mo ago
        Tariffs are quite different than a sales tax because they can select winners and losers in a market. Cane sugar vs sugar beets etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet However, they don’t have to be high enough to change who wins, even small ones adjust how much foreign subsidies manipulate the market. Foreign governments should consider how much US corn syrup impacts domestic consumption for example as a separate issue from how it impacts domestic sugar production. China’s currency manipulation has second order effects that benefits Americans. We don’t necessarily want China to stop, instead the goal should be to minimize the harm while extracting maximum benefits. A small tariff that caused them to double down on currency manipulation would be a massive win.
    - rapidfl 10mo ago
      Agree subsidies does not seem like the correct incentive structure. But that's what the other guy is doing so I guess that's what we have to do. In general, can the EV industry survive without government subsidies? Maybe now it can in the US. Also not convinced EVs (as they are currently) are vastly superior to ICE cars. Not accounting for the potential for ICE cars to vastly improve if there wasn't so much vested interest. So the whole EV industry seems a bit unsustainable...
- eru 10mo ago
  Shouldn't we be writing thank-you notes to the Chinese tax payers who so graciously subsidies cheap cars for us? I agree that Chinese workers and tax payers are hurt. But why do we need to 'defend' anything from their generosity?
  - tooltalk 10mo ago
    >> Shouldn't we be writing thank-you notes to the Chinese tax payers who so graciously subsidies cheap cars for us? I'd write a BIG thank you note to the Chinese taxpayers if they could send a direct cash payment instead, so I can use it towards my next EV purchase (of my own choosing). Otherwise, I prefer not to participate in China's predatory pricing tactic enabled by illegal export subsidies to undermine foreign competitors and distort global market.
    - eru 10mo ago
      I'm fairly sure the subsidies are perfectly legal by local laws. In any case, feel free not to buy goods you don't like. No one is forcing you to buy, or are they?
      - deleted 10mo ago
        [deleted]
      - tooltalk 10mo ago
        >> I'm fairly sure the subsidies are perfectly legal by local laws. Sure, China's NEV subsidies are illegal and that's why Chinese EVs should stay in China. Too many folks still don't understand why Chinese EVs are countervailed not only in the US, the EU, Turkiye, Canada, but also why China's ally countries such as Russia and Brazil are imposing restriction on Chinese EVs (or the legal basis). >> In any case, feel free not to buy goods you don't like. No one is forcing you to buy, or are they? Sure, but no point in marching around virtual-signaling as if Chinese EVs and illegal subsidies are pro-consumer.
        eru 10mo ago
- maxglute 10mo ago
  It's been 20 years, most industries PRC value engineers to outcompete west stays cheap, because they're not dumping, they structurally bring cost down. The current generation of Chinese workers overwhelmingly owns a house, makes above median PRC wages, meanwhile RoW consumers, most without rivalling industries, benefit. Like at some point PRC dumping starts to look like cope, they ain't dumping, their competitors in other countries, who get plenty of subsidies, just ain't using it to compete.
bawolff 10mo ago
Presumably you can't make the statement that almost all companies are below average on human rights. Mathematically at least half have to be above average.
- ginko 10mo ago
  That’d be the median, not the average.
  - AceJohnny2 10mo ago
    Torturers Inc, that operates in $country_i_hate & tortures over 10,000 people each day, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
  - bawolff 10mo ago
    Fair point, although i would generally assume that ethical behaviour of companies is normally distributed.
  - lotsofpulp 10mo ago
    Median/mean/mode/geometric are all types of averages.
    - yunnpp 10mo ago
      Then, mathematically, the original statement makes no sense.
    - eru 10mo ago
      The mode isn't any kind of average at all.
- tshaddox 10mo ago
  Presumably most people also wouldn’t be particularly concerned with what the average is. If all companies have human rights records ranging from bad to terrible, surely it’s no compliment to be above average.
thesmtsolver2 10mo ago
This is the standard “nothing can be done and everyone does it” argument when shown that BYD is literally at the bottom of the pile.
- skinnymuch 10mo ago
  A western org says out-group companies are at the bottom of the list of a report that is self reports and “transparency” aka trusting the companies words. Obviously their in-group companies will rank higher. That’s the entire purpose of the report.
jgalt212 10mo ago
> and to some extent, almost any company in the world This is weak sauce.
- skinnymuch 10mo ago
  Claiming western companies are better because a western org said so based on self reports and western reporting is also weak sauce. “We investigated ourselves and found we are fine and our out-group isn’t”
  - jgalt212 10mo ago
    china = the west is a false equivalency

by g947o 10mo ago

gloryjulio 10mo ago

This. Most of the Chinese products met the definition of dumping. They over produce with suppressed wages, currency exchange rate, and government subsidies. The current generations of Chinese workers do not benefit from this. To clarify, they have top products, some are well paid. But the general trend is dumping. I am curious when will other countries would actually start of defend their industries properly.

StopDisinfo910 10mo ago
> They over produce with suppressed wages, currency exchange rate, and government subsidies I mean, so does Germany. Technically, the USA only has the massive subsidies part since the IRA came to be but they also have tariffs so, not doing too bad distortion-wise. At this point in time, pretty much everyone is already defending their industries. China is just playing its cards better than the others and with a head start when it comes to EV.
- ericmay 10mo ago
  Tariffs aren’t the same thing as suppressing wages, overproduction, government subsidies, and managed currency to prevent deflation. In the case of the US with respect to China they are mostly a retaliation to the above anti-competitive practices. But I hear you on who is playing their cards better. I don’t think China is playing theirs very well. They pissed off both the US and EU, and even Mexico is enacting tariffs on Chinese products. American and European countries are taking action to stop Chinese anti-competitive practices. Nice factories you have there, too bad there’s nobody to sell those products to. I also don’t know what you mean when you say for example the US and Germany are suppressing wages. I’m interested in what you mean by that specifically.
  - eru 10mo ago
    What is 'overproduction'?
    - ericmay 10mo ago
      It depends, but in the case of China it’s producing Temu stuff (electronics that fail immediately, t-shirts that dissolve when washed, &c.) because they need to 1. Run other companies outside of China out of business, 2. Keep people employed even if what they produce is worth less than their labor and energy/materials input.
      - eru 10mo ago
        People seem to like Temu stuff and want to buy it. > 1. Run other companies outside of China out of business Why? > 2. Keep people employed even if what they produce is worth less than their labor and energy/materials input. Why don't they have them do something with positive utility, like sweeping streets or providing elder care, or a myriad of other jobs?
        ericmay 10mo ago
        People like all sorts of dumb things. Temu and these cheap crap products have a lot of problems, and quality is only the tip of th4 iceberg. > Why? Are you asking why they’re doing it? > Why don't they have them do something with positive utility, like sweeping streets or providing elder care, or a myriad of other jobs? They do, but they need people to be working in manufacturing facilities too, otherwise the gig is up. You can’t have millions or tens of millions of people sweeping streets all day - better to give them the illusion that the future is better by having them build and ship products.
        eru 10mo ago
        > People like all sorts of dumb things. Temu and these cheap crap products have a lot of problems, and quality is only the tip of th4 iceberg. If people are buying it voluntarily, who are we to judge? Ice cream also only lasts a single use and is gone afterwards, and no one complains. > Are you asking why they’re doing it? Sorry, I should have quoted more. > because they need to 1. Run other companies outside of China out of business, Why do they 'need to' run other companies out of business? What need do they have? > They do, but they need people to be working in manufacturing facilities too, otherwise the gig is up. You can’t have millions or tens of millions of people sweeping streets all day - better to give them the illusion that the future is better by having them build and ship products. Maybe. Sweeping streets was but one example. There's lots of other positive utility things to do, even in manufacturing.
- tooltalk 10mo ago
  >> I mean, so does Germany. How does German gov't subsidize their automakers' overcapacity? Their EV subsidies aren't/weren't exclusive to domestic EVs or EVs using certain domestic part. No issue with subsidies that are equally available to all eligible producers, domestic or foreign. This is unlike in China where market access and EV subsidies were conditioned on forced tech transfer since 2011 -- for which China was litigated before the WTO (see WT/DS549 China - Certain Measures on the Transfer of Technology). Or worse, conditioned on using local batteries made by local battery "champions," CATL/BYD/etc only to funnel all NEV subsidies back to the local battery industry and undermine foreign competitors. In other word, no NEV subsidies to any EV with foreign batteries to protect local "champions." This practice is also illegal under Article 3(b) "Prohibition" of the WTO's Subsidies and Countervailing Measures (SCM) Agreement. >> Technically, the USA only has the massive subsidies part since the ... Biden's IRA subsidy ended in September. And let's realistic, the IRA was a weak and short counter measure against China's illegal practices past 15 yeras.
concinds 10mo ago
Industry talking points, meant to convince you to subsidize them.
- Retric 10mo ago
  You don’t need to subsidize domestic companies to adjust for currency exchange rate manipulation. The government could for example impose a tariff that covers half the difference thus maintaining an unfair advantage for Chinese companies. Thus profiting from the manipulation without placing excessive burden on domestic companies.
  - eggnet 10mo ago
    I assume you're joking, but this is just sales tax.
    - Retric 10mo ago
      Tariffs are quite different than a sales tax because they can select winners and losers in a market. Cane sugar vs sugar beets etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet However, they don’t have to be high enough to change who wins, even small ones adjust how much foreign subsidies manipulate the market. Foreign governments should consider how much US corn syrup impacts domestic consumption for example as a separate issue from how it impacts domestic sugar production. China’s currency manipulation has second order effects that benefits Americans. We don’t necessarily want China to stop, instead the goal should be to minimize the harm while extracting maximum benefits. A small tariff that caused them to double down on currency manipulation would be a massive win.
  - rapidfl 10mo ago
    Agree subsidies does not seem like the correct incentive structure. But that's what the other guy is doing so I guess that's what we have to do. In general, can the EV industry survive without government subsidies? Maybe now it can in the US. Also not convinced EVs (as they are currently) are vastly superior to ICE cars. Not accounting for the potential for ICE cars to vastly improve if there wasn't so much vested interest. So the whole EV industry seems a bit unsustainable...
eru 10mo ago
Shouldn't we be writing thank-you notes to the Chinese tax payers who so graciously subsidies cheap cars for us? I agree that Chinese workers and tax payers are hurt. But why do we need to 'defend' anything from their generosity?
- tooltalk 10mo ago
  >> Shouldn't we be writing thank-you notes to the Chinese tax payers who so graciously subsidies cheap cars for us? I'd write a BIG thank you note to the Chinese taxpayers if they could send a direct cash payment instead, so I can use it towards my next EV purchase (of my own choosing). Otherwise, I prefer not to participate in China's predatory pricing tactic enabled by illegal export subsidies to undermine foreign competitors and distort global market.
  - eru 10mo ago
    I'm fairly sure the subsidies are perfectly legal by local laws. In any case, feel free not to buy goods you don't like. No one is forcing you to buy, or are they?
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
    - tooltalk 10mo ago
      >> I'm fairly sure the subsidies are perfectly legal by local laws. Sure, China's NEV subsidies are illegal and that's why Chinese EVs should stay in China. Too many folks still don't understand why Chinese EVs are countervailed not only in the US, the EU, Turkiye, Canada, but also why China's ally countries such as Russia and Brazil are imposing restriction on Chinese EVs (or the legal basis). >> In any case, feel free not to buy goods you don't like. No one is forcing you to buy, or are they? Sure, but no point in marching around virtual-signaling as if Chinese EVs and illegal subsidies are pro-consumer.
      - eru 10mo ago
maxglute 10mo ago
It's been 20 years, most industries PRC value engineers to outcompete west stays cheap, because they're not dumping, they structurally bring cost down. The current generation of Chinese workers overwhelmingly owns a house, makes above median PRC wages, meanwhile RoW consumers, most without rivalling industries, benefit. Like at some point PRC dumping starts to look like cope, they ain't dumping, their competitors in other countries, who get plenty of subsidies, just ain't using it to compete.

bawolff 10mo ago

Presumably you can't make the statement that almost all companies are below average on human rights. Mathematically at least half have to be above average.

ginko 10mo ago
That’d be the median, not the average.
- AceJohnny2 10mo ago
  Torturers Inc, that operates in $country_i_hate & tortures over 10,000 people each day, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
- bawolff 10mo ago
  Fair point, although i would generally assume that ethical behaviour of companies is normally distributed.
- lotsofpulp 10mo ago
  Median/mean/mode/geometric are all types of averages.
  - yunnpp 10mo ago
    Then, mathematically, the original statement makes no sense.
  - eru 10mo ago
    The mode isn't any kind of average at all.
tshaddox 10mo ago
Presumably most people also wouldn’t be particularly concerned with what the average is. If all companies have human rights records ranging from bad to terrible, surely it’s no compliment to be above average.

thesmtsolver2 10mo ago

This is the standard “nothing can be done and everyone does it” argument when shown that BYD is literally at the bottom of the pile.

skinnymuch 10mo ago
A western org says out-group companies are at the bottom of the list of a report that is self reports and “transparency” aka trusting the companies words. Obviously their in-group companies will rank higher. That’s the entire purpose of the report.

jgalt212 10mo ago

> and to some extent, almost any company in the world This is weak sauce.

skinnymuch 10mo ago
Claiming western companies are better because a western org said so based on self reports and western reporting is also weak sauce. “We investigated ourselves and found we are fine and our out-group isn’t”
- jgalt212 10mo ago
  china = the west is a false equivalency