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This was a terrific, reasonable take on this “controversy”. I have to admit that the correspondence set in Calibri looks like something dispatched from a leasin

This was a terrific, reasonable take on this “controversy”. I have to admit that the correspondence set in Calibri looks like something dispatched from a leasing office. Imagine reading the Warren Commission report set in that. The author seems to settle on the consensus that surrounded TNR before this exchange made the news. It’s banal. At times it signals to its original objectives (e.g., Prof. Dr. style websites [1]). But still banal more often than not. I love Univers. But I don’t think there’s anyone in public office with enough influence and swagger to ever enforce it. At the same time I have a bad feeling about the attention that decisions like this draw and what it may lead to. The article does a great job at portraying the general incompetence in both parties. I can imagine Beto O’Rourke somewhere dreaming about styling all government communiqués like a page out of Ray Gun. Planning his come back. To set anything issued from Ted Cruz’s office in Zapf Dingbats. War. [1]: https://contemporary-home-computing.org/prof-dr-style/ https://contemporary-home-computing.org/prof-dr-style/

wavefunction 10mo ago
I suppose the administration's typo-ridden nonsense formatted with a serif-font MIGHT appear more professional. It's certainly possible, not impossible.
- tolerance 10mo ago
  Right. Now imagine something like this: > In response, based upon the cumulative effects of these hostile acts against the citizens and interests of the United States and friendly foreign nations, the President recognized that the United States is in a non-international armed conflict with these designated terrorist organizations. The President directed the Department of War to conduct operations against them pursuant to the law of armed conflict. The United States has now reached a critical point where we must use force in self-defense and defense of others against the ongoing attacks by these designated terrorist organizations. <https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJRes90.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJ...> In “Carlito”! <https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Carlito https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Carlito>
jamesliudotcc 10mo ago
The Warren Commission report was set in Century Schoolbook, the Supreme Court's typeface of choice. The appendices are photo reproductions of originals produced on typewriters, so they are in something monospaced. You can see for yourself. They certainly would not have used Times New Roman. But I suppose interoffice memoranda are meant to be skimmed, not read, so TNR or Calibri are both fine.
- tolerance 10mo ago
  I didn’t mean to suggest that they would’ve. I just named a government document with significant gravity behind it to affect a point similar to the author’s: > There’s nothing inherently wrong with this style, but one would hardly want an official document or legal contract to appear “warm and soft.” Consider the response I gave to the other child comment on this thread referring to a different document as a revision if that suits you. [1] I’m sorry. I don’t know of nor do I have the wherewithal to find any correspondence from the State Department to bolster my argument that “humanist fonts” are not always suited to the tenor of all government correspondence. Oddly, none of the press releases on state.gov are available in PDF as far as I can tell. Wait. At least imagine this! > The State Department is taking decisive action against five individuals who have led organized efforts to coerce American platforms to censor, demonetize, and suppress American viewpoints they oppose. These radical activists and weaponized NGOs have advanced censorship crackdowns by foreign states—in each case targeting American speakers and American companies. As such, I have determined that their entry, presence, or activities in the United States have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States. <https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/2025/12/announcement-of-actions-to-combat-the-global-censorship-industrial-complex/ https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/20...> In “Carlito”! It’s already in “Open Sans”, which looks thinner and may have a taller X-height. What do you think of it? Not quite “warm”; certainly “soft”, I think. Should I feel concerned about this news? Or just alright? Anodyne. That’s the way the words start to look after some time when set like this. How far away is that feeling from “banal”? [1]: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJRes90.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJ...
- Aloisius 10mo ago
moron4hire 10mo ago
I'm sorry, you can't argue the font choice signals banality in the same article in which you argue that readers aren't sophisticated enough on font choice to catch that serifs are supposed to signal professionalism.
- xiphmont 10mo ago
  He can, he did, and we're all here arguing about it, which somehow delights me.
- tolerance 10mo ago
  Why not? One quality is inherent, the other inherited. The typeface was developed with banality in mind and presumably become popular because of its utility in this respect. The ensuing popularity in word processors and on the Web likely lead to the idea that it’s more professional than others. Again, the author: > Indeed, the stronger explanation for Times New Roman’s long reign isn’t aesthetic excellence, but practicality and inertia.
  - f30e3dfed1c9 10mo ago
    "The typeface was developed with banality in mind..." That's completely wrong. Times New Roman was designed for legibility at small sizes, in narrow columns, on absorbent newsprint, printed at high speed. That is, it was designed explicitly for a very specific purpose, which it fills admirably. None of that should be taken as any kind of comment on the current brouhaha.
    - tolerance 10mo ago
      I hate for us to have to make it clear that any claim in favor of the typeface’s suitability should not be interpreted as direct support for those responsible for re-instituting it. This isn’t an admonishment, but a lament I hope you may share. While TNR wasn’t designed to evoke banality in its less desirable connotations I do think the way that you’re describing it match sensibilities that the word “banal” can also carry; Ordinary, commonplace. I admit—it’s a stretch I’m taking. But how far from banal is the utilitarian?
WillAdams 10mo ago
I love Univers as well, but the _Q_ is just _too_ weird by most folks perceptions.
- xiphmont 10mo ago
  Q, more than any other glyph, is the letter that never fails to look weird in every typeface when I spend too much time looking at it/re-re-re-re-designing it.
- tolerance 10mo ago
  What do you think about Gerstner-Programm? https://forgotten-shapes.com/gerstner-programm/gerstnerprogramm-regular/characters https://forgotten-shapes.com/gerstner-programm/gerstnerprogr...
  - WillAdams 10mo ago
    It's fine, but I'm not seeing that it has the wonderful width and breadth and depth of variations which Univers is noted for: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5affbc175417fc9bf0498d37/1532489854338-RJHKPJRXHLXO9M8U3QYY/Artboard+5.png https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5affbc175417fc...
unethical_ban 10mo ago
Not sure why Beto is catching strays, but I can tell you're from Texas, heh.
dheera 10mo ago
> correspondence set in Calibri looks like something dispatched from a leasing office In general this is the way I feel about anything written in a Microsoft-, Apple-, or Ubuntu-supplied typeface. If you stick to system fonts you the pinnacle of embodiment of apathy in my book. Have some backbone, browse through Google fonts, pick something that represents your organization and stick with it. Even if you are a leasing office, pick a good font. That will make me more likely to lease from you because your attention to typography conveys to me that you will also be attentive to details in building maintainence. If you communicate in Times New Roman and Arial it tells me that you probably are apathetic about mold in the walls and electrical code as well.
- QuercusMax 10mo ago
  That's... certainly an opinion.
- necovek 10mo ago
  While I appreciate nice typography like not many do (I decide on what editions of a book — especially classics — to get based on the typography and overall layout), I also appreciate that I may be easily swayed by good typography and land on a crappy outcome (I have several very lousy books that were done really well typographically :)). So I'd never use that as a metric: yes, I care about typography, and if the content of the message is equivalent, I'll pick the one done better. But I do not expect everyone else to put as much weight on it.
- tiffanyh 10mo ago
  Any typefaces you’d recommend?
  - dheera 10mo ago
    For serious government communications? Libertinus Serif, Vollkorn, Ibarra Real Nova, Baskerville, Libre Baskerville
- ericjmorey 10mo ago
  If it's legible, the terms of a lease are way more important than the typeface. Anyone wasting time on the typeface of the contract would worry me more than comfort me with regard to knowing what's important.
tombert 10mo ago
I also never really liked Calibri for professional stuff. Maybe I'm just a victim of conditionig, but Calibri always had a bit of a "web page" vibe, not official document vibe. I personally think that Computer Modern/Latin Modern from LaTeX looks a lot better than Times New Roman. I wish they'd standardize on that but it might not be included in Microsoft Office, so I guess Times New Roman it is.
tracker1 10mo ago
Before the recent post on Public Sans, I was unaware of the typeface myself... I think it's absolutely beautiful myself, I wish it were more complete for use outside US contexts. I like it a bit better than Robot Sans, which has been my go to for web content for about a decade. That said, I feel the issues come to play with the differences between what is seen on a screen and what persists in physical print. I do wish they'd picked a better font in both cases... My own assumption about the Calibri switch was that it was the MS Office default, meaning one less step, but I guess that default itself has changed since. My only preference would be for a typeface that has a free/open license for broad usage as a default. Also, given the nature of printed documents would probably lean towards at least some serifs to make reading easier, especially to better distinguish some of the more problematic characters.

wavefunction 10mo ago

I suppose the administration's typo-ridden nonsense formatted with a serif-font MIGHT appear more professional. It's certainly possible, not impossible.

tolerance 10mo ago
Right. Now imagine something like this: > In response, based upon the cumulative effects of these hostile acts against the citizens and interests of the United States and friendly foreign nations, the President recognized that the United States is in a non-international armed conflict with these designated terrorist organizations. The President directed the Department of War to conduct operations against them pursuant to the law of armed conflict. The United States has now reached a critical point where we must use force in self-defense and defense of others against the ongoing attacks by these designated terrorist organizations. <https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJRes90.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJ...> In “Carlito”! <https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Carlito https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Carlito>

jamesliudotcc 10mo ago

The Warren Commission report was set in Century Schoolbook, the Supreme Court's typeface of choice. The appendices are photo reproductions of originals produced on typewriters, so they are in something monospaced. You can see for yourself. They certainly would not have used Times New Roman. But I suppose interoffice memoranda are meant to be skimmed, not read, so TNR or Calibri are both fine.

tolerance 10mo ago
I didn’t mean to suggest that they would’ve. I just named a government document with significant gravity behind it to affect a point similar to the author’s: > There’s nothing inherently wrong with this style, but one would hardly want an official document or legal contract to appear “warm and soft.” Consider the response I gave to the other child comment on this thread referring to a different document as a revision if that suits you. [1] I’m sorry. I don’t know of nor do I have the wherewithal to find any correspondence from the State Department to bolster my argument that “humanist fonts” are not always suited to the tenor of all government correspondence. Oddly, none of the press releases on state.gov are available in PDF as far as I can tell. Wait. At least imagine this! > The State Department is taking decisive action against five individuals who have led organized efforts to coerce American platforms to censor, demonetize, and suppress American viewpoints they oppose. These radical activists and weaponized NGOs have advanced censorship crackdowns by foreign states—in each case targeting American speakers and American companies. As such, I have determined that their entry, presence, or activities in the United States have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States. <https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/2025/12/announcement-of-actions-to-combat-the-global-censorship-industrial-complex/ https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/20...> In “Carlito”! It’s already in “Open Sans”, which looks thinner and may have a taller X-height. What do you think of it? Not quite “warm”; certainly “soft”, I think. Should I feel concerned about this news? Or just alright? Anodyne. That’s the way the words start to look after some time when set like this. How far away is that feeling from “banal”? [1]: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJRes90.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/SAP-SJ...
Aloisius 10mo ago

moron4hire 10mo ago

I'm sorry, you can't argue the font choice signals banality in the same article in which you argue that readers aren't sophisticated enough on font choice to catch that serifs are supposed to signal professionalism.

xiphmont 10mo ago
He can, he did, and we're all here arguing about it, which somehow delights me.
tolerance 10mo ago
Why not? One quality is inherent, the other inherited. The typeface was developed with banality in mind and presumably become popular because of its utility in this respect. The ensuing popularity in word processors and on the Web likely lead to the idea that it’s more professional than others. Again, the author: > Indeed, the stronger explanation for Times New Roman’s long reign isn’t aesthetic excellence, but practicality and inertia.
- f30e3dfed1c9 10mo ago
  "The typeface was developed with banality in mind..." That's completely wrong. Times New Roman was designed for legibility at small sizes, in narrow columns, on absorbent newsprint, printed at high speed. That is, it was designed explicitly for a very specific purpose, which it fills admirably. None of that should be taken as any kind of comment on the current brouhaha.
  - tolerance 10mo ago
    I hate for us to have to make it clear that any claim in favor of the typeface’s suitability should not be interpreted as direct support for those responsible for re-instituting it. This isn’t an admonishment, but a lament I hope you may share. While TNR wasn’t designed to evoke banality in its less desirable connotations I do think the way that you’re describing it match sensibilities that the word “banal” can also carry; Ordinary, commonplace. I admit—it’s a stretch I’m taking. But how far from banal is the utilitarian?

WillAdams 10mo ago

I love Univers as well, but the _Q_ is just _too_ weird by most folks perceptions.

xiphmont 10mo ago
Q, more than any other glyph, is the letter that never fails to look weird in every typeface when I spend too much time looking at it/re-re-re-re-designing it.
tolerance 10mo ago
What do you think about Gerstner-Programm? https://forgotten-shapes.com/gerstner-programm/gerstnerprogramm-regular/characters https://forgotten-shapes.com/gerstner-programm/gerstnerprogr...
- WillAdams 10mo ago
  It's fine, but I'm not seeing that it has the wonderful width and breadth and depth of variations which Univers is noted for: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5affbc175417fc9bf0498d37/1532489854338-RJHKPJRXHLXO9M8U3QYY/Artboard+5.png https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5affbc175417fc...

unethical_ban 10mo ago

Not sure why Beto is catching strays, but I can tell you're from Texas, heh.

dheera 10mo ago

> correspondence set in Calibri looks like something dispatched from a leasing office In general this is the way I feel about anything written in a Microsoft-, Apple-, or Ubuntu-supplied typeface. If you stick to system fonts you the pinnacle of embodiment of apathy in my book. Have some backbone, browse through Google fonts, pick something that represents your organization and stick with it. Even if you are a leasing office, pick a good font. That will make me more likely to lease from you because your attention to typography conveys to me that you will also be attentive to details in building maintainence. If you communicate in Times New Roman and Arial it tells me that you probably are apathetic about mold in the walls and electrical code as well.

QuercusMax 10mo ago
That's... certainly an opinion.
necovek 10mo ago
While I appreciate nice typography like not many do (I decide on what editions of a book — especially classics — to get based on the typography and overall layout), I also appreciate that I may be easily swayed by good typography and land on a crappy outcome (I have several very lousy books that were done really well typographically :)). So I'd never use that as a metric: yes, I care about typography, and if the content of the message is equivalent, I'll pick the one done better. But I do not expect everyone else to put as much weight on it.
tiffanyh 10mo ago
Any typefaces you’d recommend?
- dheera 10mo ago
  For serious government communications? Libertinus Serif, Vollkorn, Ibarra Real Nova, Baskerville, Libre Baskerville
ericjmorey 10mo ago
If it's legible, the terms of a lease are way more important than the typeface. Anyone wasting time on the typeface of the contract would worry me more than comfort me with regard to knowing what's important.

tombert 10mo ago

I also never really liked Calibri for professional stuff. Maybe I'm just a victim of conditionig, but Calibri always had a bit of a "web page" vibe, not official document vibe. I personally think that Computer Modern/Latin Modern from LaTeX looks a lot better than Times New Roman. I wish they'd standardize on that but it might not be included in Microsoft Office, so I guess Times New Roman it is.

tracker1 10mo ago

Before the recent post on Public Sans, I was unaware of the typeface myself... I think it's absolutely beautiful myself, I wish it were more complete for use outside US contexts. I like it a bit better than Robot Sans, which has been my go to for web content for about a decade. That said, I feel the issues come to play with the differences between what is seen on a screen and what persists in physical print. I do wish they'd picked a better font in both cases... My own assumption about the Calibri switch was that it was the MS Office default, meaning one less step, but I guess that default itself has changed since. My only preference would be for a typeface that has a free/open license for broad usage as a default. Also, given the nature of printed documents would probably lean towards at least some serifs to make reading easier, especially to better distinguish some of the more problematic characters.