3 ms·

I think you'd have to be stupid to expect productivity gains from your software developers using LLMs edit: a lot of articles like this have been popping up re

I think you'd have to be stupid to expect productivity gains from your software developers using LLMs edit: a lot of articles like this have been popping up recently to say "LLMs aren't as good as we hyped them up to be, but they still increase developer productivity by 10-15%". I think that is a big lie. I do not think LLMs have been shown to increase developer productivity in any capacity. Frankly, I think LLMs drastically degrade developer performance. LLMs make people stupider.

simonw 10mo ago
Can you describe anything about the difference between using ChatGPT with GPT-4o to write code in January 2025 and using Opus 4.5 with Claude Code in December 2025?
- jennyholzer3 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - simonw 10mo ago
    Yeah, I don't think you've used any of the technology you are criticizing here.
  - peteforde 10mo ago
    This isn't the smart, snappy reply that you believe it to be. As a comment reader this exchange with Simon translates directly to "no, but you have forced me to try and misdirect because I can't reply in good faith to an expert who has forgotten more about LLMs than I'll ever know".
    - jennyholzer3 10mo ago
      what reads to you as "an expert who has forgotten more about LLMs than I'll ever know" reads to me as a crack cocaine smoker. just write the code
      - pigpop 10mo ago
        The only person coming off as unhinged and out of touch with reality here is you.
alooPotato 10mo ago
Do you think IDE's, type checking, refactoring tools and autocomplete make developers stupider too? Serious question.
- jennyholzer3 10mo ago
  not at all, I think these are valuable tools would you agree that LLMs make developer stupider? edit: answer my question
  - alooPotato 10mo ago
    So what about Cursor's tab autocomplete? Seems like there is a spectrum of tooling between raw assembly all the way to vibe coding and I'm trying to see where you draw the line. Is it "if it uses AI, its bad" or are you more against the "hey build me something and I'm not even gonna check the results."
    - peteforde 10mo ago
      ... they are not going to give you a satisfying answer to your totally reasonable line of inquiry. Looking at the brief history of their account, I don't think anything they are saying or asking is in remotely good faith.
amelius 10mo ago
I've seen interns (with academic background) build advanced UIs for projects while not having a background in coding. This would not have been possible without LLMs.
- jennyholzer3 10mo ago
  Can they do it without LLMs? If they can't, did they really do it in the first place? Are they actually literate in the programming languages they're using?
  - koakuma-chan 10mo ago
    I don't write any front-end code at work anymore. I use Figma MCP and Cursor and it can implement the design near perfectly on first try.
    - deaux 10mo ago
      To be fair, this is presumably because a skilled human spends time properly making the design for you in Figma.
      - koakuma-chan 10mo ago
        It doesn't really matter how "skilled" the designer is. Figma's MCP already provides HTML and CSS that's basically ready, and all AI needs to do is translate that into React or whatever. Or if you mean that AI wouldn't be able to make a proper interface without the human, that's also not true. The only reason I use Figma MCP is that my company uses Figma and has a dedicated Figma person. My opinion is that is just a bottleneck, and it would be easier to prompt AI to make whatever interface.
        deaux 10mo ago
        > The only reason I use Figma MCP is that my company uses Figma and has a dedicated Figma person. My opinion is that is just a bottleneck, and it would be easier to prompt AI to make whatever interface. Here's where our opinions differ - I think replacing that Figma person with AI prompts will negatively affect product in a way that is noticeable to the end-user and effects their experience. It does of course depend what kind of product you're making, but I'd say most of the time this holds.
ookblah 10mo ago
well you don't have to "think" anything lol, if you've never tried it yourself that's step one. step two is to not assume everyone out there is a shill or lying because that's awful convenient. also its not black or white. developers can exist in a small team, solo, large enterprise all with their mandates and cultures so just saying LLMs increase/decrease is reductive. have a feeling i'm being trolled tho.
- jennyholzer3 10mo ago
  I'm not trolling, this is my sincere opinion I think LLM addicts are particularly susceptible to flattery.
  - CuriouslyC 10mo ago
    You're alienating a lot of people just by calling them "LLM addicts," and I suspect you're not arguing in good faith given your language. There are a lot of sad people who have developed parasocial relationships with ChatGPT, but that's entirely a separate issue from whether agents are a good tool for software engineering.
  - peteforde 10mo ago
    "Real" woodworkers often have similar reactions when they see people incorporating CNC machines into their creative process as you appear to have when it comes to your engagement style on this topic. They don't emerge looking credible, either.
    - jennyholzer3 10mo ago
      equating a CNC router with Claude Code or Chat GPT is an egregious false equivalency.
mapontosevenths 10mo ago
The thing you're likely missing is that you've forgotten what programming is at a high level. A program is a series of instructions that tell a computer how to perform a task. The specifics of the language aren't as important as the ability to use them to get the machine to perform the tasks instructed. We can now use English as that language, which allows more people than ever to program. English isn't as expressive as Python wielded by an expert, yet. It will be. This is bad for people who used to leverage the difficulty of the task to their own advantage, but good for everyone else. Also, keep in mind that todays LLM's are the worst they'll ever be. They will continue to improve, and you will stagnate if you don't learn to use the new tools effectively.
- coffeefirst 10mo ago
  > you will stagnate if you don't learn to use the new tools effectively. This is the first technology in my career where the promoters feel the need to threaten everyone who expresses any sort of criticism, skepticism, or experience to the contrary. It is very odd. I do not care for it.
  - mapontosevenths 10mo ago
    How old is your career then? I've been hearing some variation on "evolve or die" for about 30 years now, and it's been true every time... Except for COBOL. Some of those guys are still doing the same thing they were back then. Literally everything else has changed and the people that didn't keep up are gone.
    - linuxrocks123 9mo ago
      [dead]
  - jennyholzer3 10mo ago
    "you will stagnate if you don't learn to use the new tools effectively." this hostile marketing scheme is the reason for my hostile opposition to LLMs and LLM idiots. LLMs do not make you smarter or a more effective developer. You are a sucker if you buy into the hype.

simonw 10mo ago

Can you describe anything about the difference between using ChatGPT with GPT-4o to write code in January 2025 and using Opus 4.5 with Claude Code in December 2025?

jennyholzer3 10mo ago
[flagged]
- simonw 10mo ago
  Yeah, I don't think you've used any of the technology you are criticizing here.
- peteforde 10mo ago
  This isn't the smart, snappy reply that you believe it to be. As a comment reader this exchange with Simon translates directly to "no, but you have forced me to try and misdirect because I can't reply in good faith to an expert who has forgotten more about LLMs than I'll ever know".
  - jennyholzer3 10mo ago
    what reads to you as "an expert who has forgotten more about LLMs than I'll ever know" reads to me as a crack cocaine smoker. just write the code
    - pigpop 10mo ago
      The only person coming off as unhinged and out of touch with reality here is you.

alooPotato 10mo ago

Do you think IDE's, type checking, refactoring tools and autocomplete make developers stupider too? Serious question.

jennyholzer3 10mo ago
not at all, I think these are valuable tools would you agree that LLMs make developer stupider? edit: answer my question
- alooPotato 10mo ago
  So what about Cursor's tab autocomplete? Seems like there is a spectrum of tooling between raw assembly all the way to vibe coding and I'm trying to see where you draw the line. Is it "if it uses AI, its bad" or are you more against the "hey build me something and I'm not even gonna check the results."
  - peteforde 10mo ago
    ... they are not going to give you a satisfying answer to your totally reasonable line of inquiry. Looking at the brief history of their account, I don't think anything they are saying or asking is in remotely good faith.

amelius 10mo ago

I've seen interns (with academic background) build advanced UIs for projects while not having a background in coding. This would not have been possible without LLMs.

jennyholzer3 10mo ago
Can they do it without LLMs? If they can't, did they really do it in the first place? Are they actually literate in the programming languages they're using?
- koakuma-chan 10mo ago
  I don't write any front-end code at work anymore. I use Figma MCP and Cursor and it can implement the design near perfectly on first try.
  - deaux 10mo ago
    To be fair, this is presumably because a skilled human spends time properly making the design for you in Figma.
    - koakuma-chan 10mo ago
      It doesn't really matter how "skilled" the designer is. Figma's MCP already provides HTML and CSS that's basically ready, and all AI needs to do is translate that into React or whatever. Or if you mean that AI wouldn't be able to make a proper interface without the human, that's also not true. The only reason I use Figma MCP is that my company uses Figma and has a dedicated Figma person. My opinion is that is just a bottleneck, and it would be easier to prompt AI to make whatever interface.
      - deaux 10mo ago
        > The only reason I use Figma MCP is that my company uses Figma and has a dedicated Figma person. My opinion is that is just a bottleneck, and it would be easier to prompt AI to make whatever interface. Here's where our opinions differ - I think replacing that Figma person with AI prompts will negatively affect product in a way that is noticeable to the end-user and effects their experience. It does of course depend what kind of product you're making, but I'd say most of the time this holds.

ookblah 10mo ago

well you don't have to "think" anything lol, if you've never tried it yourself that's step one. step two is to not assume everyone out there is a shill or lying because that's awful convenient. also its not black or white. developers can exist in a small team, solo, large enterprise all with their mandates and cultures so just saying LLMs increase/decrease is reductive. have a feeling i'm being trolled tho.

jennyholzer3 10mo ago
I'm not trolling, this is my sincere opinion I think LLM addicts are particularly susceptible to flattery.
- CuriouslyC 10mo ago
  You're alienating a lot of people just by calling them "LLM addicts," and I suspect you're not arguing in good faith given your language. There are a lot of sad people who have developed parasocial relationships with ChatGPT, but that's entirely a separate issue from whether agents are a good tool for software engineering.
- peteforde 10mo ago
  "Real" woodworkers often have similar reactions when they see people incorporating CNC machines into their creative process as you appear to have when it comes to your engagement style on this topic. They don't emerge looking credible, either.
  - jennyholzer3 10mo ago
    equating a CNC router with Claude Code or Chat GPT is an egregious false equivalency.

mapontosevenths 10mo ago

The thing you're likely missing is that you've forgotten what programming is at a high level. A program is a series of instructions that tell a computer how to perform a task. The specifics of the language aren't as important as the ability to use them to get the machine to perform the tasks instructed. We can now use English as that language, which allows more people than ever to program. English isn't as expressive as Python wielded by an expert, yet. It will be. This is bad for people who used to leverage the difficulty of the task to their own advantage, but good for everyone else. Also, keep in mind that todays LLM's are the worst they'll ever be. They will continue to improve, and you will stagnate if you don't learn to use the new tools effectively.

coffeefirst 10mo ago
> you will stagnate if you don't learn to use the new tools effectively. This is the first technology in my career where the promoters feel the need to threaten everyone who expresses any sort of criticism, skepticism, or experience to the contrary. It is very odd. I do not care for it.
- mapontosevenths 10mo ago
  How old is your career then? I've been hearing some variation on "evolve or die" for about 30 years now, and it's been true every time... Except for COBOL. Some of those guys are still doing the same thing they were back then. Literally everything else has changed and the people that didn't keep up are gone.
  - linuxrocks123 9mo ago
    [dead]
- jennyholzer3 10mo ago
  "you will stagnate if you don't learn to use the new tools effectively." this hostile marketing scheme is the reason for my hostile opposition to LLMs and LLM idiots. LLMs do not make you smarter or a more effective developer. You are a sucker if you buy into the hype.