4 ms·

Except for the late night home raids rooting out "hate speech". Opposite of chill.

by UberFly 9mo ago

nosianu 9mo ago
Just for anyone new here, if you have comments like this, please be specific and post something a neutral person can verify and form their own opinion on. Don't just post silly one-liners that don't have any real content. This would have been a concrete example, where a government minister abused the system because a tweet annoyed him: https://theweek.com/news/world-news/954635/willygate-german-minister-ridiculed https://theweek.com/news/world-news/954635/willygate-german-...
sho_hn 9mo ago
I'll take the bait because I'm annoyed by the boiling-frog aspect to vaguely alluding to things. Here's the press release on this: https://www.bka.de/DE/Presse/Listenseite_Pressemitteilungen/2024/Presse2024/240306_PM_Aktionstag_gegen_Frauenfeindlichkeit.html?nn=27906 https://www.bka.de/DE/Presse/Listenseite_Pressemitteilungen/... tl;dr Since in Germany it is illegal to e.g. make public postings calling for the rape of women or share video footage of women being murdered and tortured for the purpose of entertainment and gloating, one day ahead of International Womens Day police staged a big showy series of raids on individuals doing such things, to make a point and call attention to the issue. Sounds like an excellent use of my tax money, to be honest, but it was certainly controversial also in Germany.
- on_the_train 9mo ago
  It is also illegal to share crime statistics or make jokes about politicians
  - sho_hn 9mo ago
    Observe how hyperbole comes without links, in comparison.
    - on_the_train 9mo ago
      https://www.bz-berlin.de/meinung/kolumne/kolumne-mein-aerger/witz-2 https://www.bz-berlin.de/meinung/kolumne/kolumne-mein-aerger...
      - the_why_of_y 9mo ago
        This article doesn't report the facts correctly; the search warrant was issued for posting an anti-semitic Nazi meme. (Just for the record, I believe that a well-known politician should just have to live with being insulted.) > The Bavaria resident is also accused of posting Nazi-era imagery and language earlier in 2024. According to prosecutors, this post may have violated German laws against the incitement of ethnic or religious hatred. > The man was arrested on Thursday as part of nationwide police operations against suspected antisemitic hate speech online. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-over-online-insult/a-70793557 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-... This article is more informative: Translated (with DeepL.com): > The public prosecutor's office in Bamberg has now announced: The search had already been requested before the Green politician himself filed a criminal complaint in the case. > Habeck only filed a criminal complaint in the case more than a month after the search warrant had been requested. > According to the public prosecutor's office, the suspect is also facing another charge: According to this, in spring 2024, he allegedly uploaded a picture on X with a reference to the Nazi dictatorship, which could potentially constitute the criminal offense of incitement to hatred. According to the investigators, it shows an SS or SA man with the poster and the words “Germans don't buy from Jews” and the additional text “True democrats! We've had it all before!”. https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/schwachkopf-beleidigung-razzia-bei-rentner-war-vor-habecks-anzeige-geplant-a-c3f0062f-5d9e-49b5-b02e-53693cf4036a https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/schwachkopf-belei... (Note the date on the last article - 5 days later than the one you linked - likely the facts weren't known to the public before then)
- pembrook 9mo ago
  Hrmmm, German supports using the monopoly on violence given to the state to make raids on people who make undesirable social media posts. There’s only one problem. Whos to say you won’t be the next target if the political climate shifts to cracking down on pro-censorship voices like yourself? Will you think its still a good use of your tax money when the opposition is putting you in a police car for this exact HN comment?
  - sho_hn 9mo ago
    > German supports using the monopoly on violence given to the state to make raids on people who make undesirable social media posts. Yes. As a sibling poster mentioned, this has historical roots. German law recognizes something called "Volksverhetzung", similar to concepts in other national criminal codes in other countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung You can probably guess which hot button issue it comes up with in context the most often (if not: Holocaust denial). Essentially, there was a landmark judgement that certain forms of calling for violence against women publicly can qualify as this, and so may potentially be criminal (this would be decided case by case in an actual trial, of course). I can completely understand coming from the perspective of the First Amendment US system and having a different opinion on this. As a crude analogy, it's a bit like Americans love their free market while Europeans usually think a bit more regulation of capitalism is a sane thing to do. It's going to be difficult to agree across the pond. These things exist on a gradient. Note that plenty of other intact democracies are much stricter than Germany, e.g. South Korea where legal action against online hate speech occurs at a far larger volume, and comes together with far more tracking infrastructure and lack of anonymity on the internet (e.g. since everyone has a client cert for online commerce). And you know what? Many South Koreans want internet hate speech and trolling and bullying policed even much harder. In Germany there is constant, sometimes quite heated debate on the reach of the application of the Volksverhetzung idea. I think that's very good and have had different opinions across various cases. > Will you think its still a good use of your tax money when the opposition is putting you in a police car for this exact HN comment? I know the legislative and political processes of my country well enough to know the long process it would take to get there. If I see things slide in the wrong direction, you bet I'll vote or take to the streets on that issue, too. A country is a process that takes active participation. It's not a black or white thing you settle one time.
spit2wind 9mo ago
I'll also take the bait. As far as I understand it, these rules come, fundamentally, from the German Basic Law which was drafted, in part, with direct support from the US after the war. There's certainly always room for healthy debate about what is meant by freedom of speech. But it strikes me as ignorant to come from a US "absolutist" perspective and not understand the history (of US involvement). No clue if the poster is approaching it from that perspective; I'm trying to raise the point of historical context in response to the category of such responses I've encountered.

Except for the late night home raids rooting out "hate speech". Opposite of chill.

by UberFly 9mo ago

Except for the late night home raids rooting out "hate speech". Opposite of chill.

Just for anyone new here, if you have comments like this, please be specific and post something a neutral person can verify and form their own opinion on. Don't just post silly one-liners that don't have any real content. This would have been a concrete example, where a government minister abused the system because a tweet annoyed him: https://theweek.com/news/world-news/954635/willygate-german-minister-ridiculed https://theweek.com/news/world-news/954635/willygate-german-...

sho_hn 9mo ago

I'll take the bait because I'm annoyed by the boiling-frog aspect to vaguely alluding to things. Here's the press release on this: https://www.bka.de/DE/Presse/Listenseite_Pressemitteilungen/2024/Presse2024/240306_PM_Aktionstag_gegen_Frauenfeindlichkeit.html?nn=27906 https://www.bka.de/DE/Presse/Listenseite_Pressemitteilungen/... tl;dr Since in Germany it is illegal to e.g. make public postings calling for the rape of women or share video footage of women being murdered and tortured for the purpose of entertainment and gloating, one day ahead of International Womens Day police staged a big showy series of raids on individuals doing such things, to make a point and call attention to the issue. Sounds like an excellent use of my tax money, to be honest, but it was certainly controversial also in Germany.

on_the_train 9mo ago
It is also illegal to share crime statistics or make jokes about politicians
- sho_hn 9mo ago
  Observe how hyperbole comes without links, in comparison.
  - on_the_train 9mo ago
    https://www.bz-berlin.de/meinung/kolumne/kolumne-mein-aerger/witz-2 https://www.bz-berlin.de/meinung/kolumne/kolumne-mein-aerger...
    - the_why_of_y 9mo ago
      This article doesn't report the facts correctly; the search warrant was issued for posting an anti-semitic Nazi meme. (Just for the record, I believe that a well-known politician should just have to live with being insulted.) > The Bavaria resident is also accused of posting Nazi-era imagery and language earlier in 2024. According to prosecutors, this post may have violated German laws against the incitement of ethnic or religious hatred. > The man was arrested on Thursday as part of nationwide police operations against suspected antisemitic hate speech online. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-over-online-insult/a-70793557 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-... This article is more informative: Translated (with DeepL.com): > The public prosecutor's office in Bamberg has now announced: The search had already been requested before the Green politician himself filed a criminal complaint in the case. > Habeck only filed a criminal complaint in the case more than a month after the search warrant had been requested. > According to the public prosecutor's office, the suspect is also facing another charge: According to this, in spring 2024, he allegedly uploaded a picture on X with a reference to the Nazi dictatorship, which could potentially constitute the criminal offense of incitement to hatred. According to the investigators, it shows an SS or SA man with the poster and the words “Germans don't buy from Jews” and the additional text “True democrats! We've had it all before!”. https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/schwachkopf-beleidigung-razzia-bei-rentner-war-vor-habecks-anzeige-geplant-a-c3f0062f-5d9e-49b5-b02e-53693cf4036a https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/schwachkopf-belei... (Note the date on the last article - 5 days later than the one you linked - likely the facts weren't known to the public before then)
pembrook 9mo ago
Hrmmm, German supports using the monopoly on violence given to the state to make raids on people who make undesirable social media posts. There’s only one problem. Whos to say you won’t be the next target if the political climate shifts to cracking down on pro-censorship voices like yourself? Will you think its still a good use of your tax money when the opposition is putting you in a police car for this exact HN comment?
- sho_hn 9mo ago
  > German supports using the monopoly on violence given to the state to make raids on people who make undesirable social media posts. Yes. As a sibling poster mentioned, this has historical roots. German law recognizes something called "Volksverhetzung", similar to concepts in other national criminal codes in other countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung You can probably guess which hot button issue it comes up with in context the most often (if not: Holocaust denial). Essentially, there was a landmark judgement that certain forms of calling for violence against women publicly can qualify as this, and so may potentially be criminal (this would be decided case by case in an actual trial, of course). I can completely understand coming from the perspective of the First Amendment US system and having a different opinion on this. As a crude analogy, it's a bit like Americans love their free market while Europeans usually think a bit more regulation of capitalism is a sane thing to do. It's going to be difficult to agree across the pond. These things exist on a gradient. Note that plenty of other intact democracies are much stricter than Germany, e.g. South Korea where legal action against online hate speech occurs at a far larger volume, and comes together with far more tracking infrastructure and lack of anonymity on the internet (e.g. since everyone has a client cert for online commerce). And you know what? Many South Koreans want internet hate speech and trolling and bullying policed even much harder. In Germany there is constant, sometimes quite heated debate on the reach of the application of the Volksverhetzung idea. I think that's very good and have had different opinions across various cases. > Will you think its still a good use of your tax money when the opposition is putting you in a police car for this exact HN comment? I know the legislative and political processes of my country well enough to know the long process it would take to get there. If I see things slide in the wrong direction, you bet I'll vote or take to the streets on that issue, too. A country is a process that takes active participation. It's not a black or white thing you settle one time.

spit2wind 9mo ago

I'll also take the bait. As far as I understand it, these rules come, fundamentally, from the German Basic Law which was drafted, in part, with direct support from the US after the war. There's certainly always room for healthy debate about what is meant by freedom of speech. But it strikes me as ignorant to come from a US "absolutist" perspective and not understand the history (of US involvement). No clue if the poster is approaching it from that perspective; I'm trying to raise the point of historical context in response to the category of such responses I've encountered.