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As often as not, these days, when someone online criticizes the West, it's for something absurd (eg: Churchill interfering with Hitler's continental invasions,
by thomassmith65 10mo ago
As often as not, these days, when someone online criticizes the West, it's for something absurd (eg: Churchill interfering with Hitler's continental invasions, or America using the word 'regime' when discussing Iran). Obviously, other times the criticism is wholly justified.
What "dominant Western narratives" apply here? I'm not going to bicker. I'm just curious.
- idiotsecant 10mo agoThere's no need to be defensive. We are largely westerners on a western website studying history from a western perspective. There's nothing wrong with that, it's natural. It just means we lose some understanding of events if that's the only side we know. OP is performing a service by documenting first-person history, and doesn't need to justify why it's important. It's important.
- sophrosyne42 10mo agoI'm still curious what specific narratives you had in mind when you said "dominant Western narratives"
- xanthor 10mo agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46410398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46410398
- sersi 10mo agoTo be fair, my father in law who is Chinese and had to exile himself during the cultural revolution would pretty much say the same thing about the Cultural Revolution. Educated people in China who lived through it will certainly criticise the Cultural Revolution (or The Great Leap Forward for that matter) if they are in a situation when they can be honest about it. So I'm not sure that specific comment would be considered to be a "dominant western narrative" unless you're going to tell me that older (and so who have lived through it) educated people in China who don't speak a word of English have a western mindset because they're educated.
- xanthor 10mo agoRead Dongping Han
- sersi 10mo agoOh the fact that there has been some positives from the cultural revolution (by having educated people sent to the farm and rural area) doesn't stop the fact that the cultural revolution was a net negative for the country. How many works of arts have been destroyed due to it? How many people suffered? Nothing is ever white or black but it doesn't mean that we can take a small positive outcome and use that to justify atrocities.
- xanthor 10mo agoThe fact that you immediately think you know what the author I referenced has written and continue to plow forward with your pre-established conclusions is evidence of the “dominant western narrative” effect. Accounts from well-off diaspora of any country will always be negative. It’s a self-selecting group with specific interests.
- sersi 10mo agoI mean I skimmed it earlier but I do plan to read it. That said my pre-established conclusions are based on first hand negative accounts of people who currently still live in China some of which do not speak English so weren't influenced by any "western narrative" (where I also lived for a number of years before moving to HK). Those are not accounts from a well-off diaspora. EDIT: By the way, it's not that hard either to find books written by Chinese writers not part of the diaspora that are critical of the cultural revolution (Serve the people by Yan Lianke, 3 body problem by Liu Cixin) or the great leap forward (4 books by Yan Lianke). Obviously, writers living in China that have to deal with censorship tend to be less directly critical of it compared to writers from the diaspora but that doesn't stop some criticism to shine through.a
- 10mo ago
- sophrosyne42 10mo agoWe're talking about 404, not the cultural revolution
- therealpygon 10mo agoIt’s a valid question, despite the cynical delivery.
- throw10920 10mo ago> There's no need to be defensive. This is extremely manipulative. The only reasons to say something like this are to shame the person you're respond to and/or attack and discredit them and force them to respond defensively. Don't do this. (it also immediately outs you as not having any valid points to make, because someone with a reasonable response doesn't need to stoop to emotional attacks)
- thomassmith65 10mo agoMy comment was asking for details about its parent comment, not about the main post. I was curious about the 'narratives' it mentioned. They might be wrongheaded; they might be valid. Either way, it piques my interest.
- andruby 10mo agoNot OP, but one example could perhaps be American Prometheus and the Oppenheimer film. I would consider them "dominant Western narratives" about the origin of the nuclear bomb. And like the person said, there is nothing inherently wrong with such a narrative. Like them I'm also curious about non-western narratives. If most groups, cultures, religions, countries were more curious about "non-native" stories, maybe we'd all be a bit more open-minded and understanding.
- RealityVoid 10mo agoI think Oppenheimer is pretty fair as it goes. It's pretty clear with it being the US perspective and they give credit to the other countries that they have good scientists that will figure the thing out (and they did). I think for exposing a man's experience, it's quite good. What makes me wrong? (An honest invitation to illuminate me)
- thomassmith65 10mo agoThe last paragraph is true, but up to the point where one becomes a useful idiot for a totalitarian state. I don't mean you, but on social media there are quite a few people like that.
- the_af 10mo agoWhat exactly are you advocating? You seem to be going back to Cold War logic. Your initial assertion that people online criticizing the West are "often" criticizing "absurd" things is simultaneously wrong and condescending, some sort of thought-terminating cliché.
- thomassmith65 10mo agoLiberal democracy, I suppose.
- the_af 10mo agoHow is it advocating for liberal democracy when you preemptively cast doubts on narratives other than the dominant Western one? "Useful idiots" etc is the language of Cold War logic.
- Vincent_Yan404 10mo agoI don't think I'm criticizing Western narratives. This is simply my personal perspective and experience growing up there.
- girvo 10mo agoThey weren’t accusing you of that, but asking the other commenter what the meant :)
- thomassmith65 10mo agoI know! It was a fantastic read. My comment was referring to another comment with an ambiguous reference.
- thenthenthen 10mo agoShort generalised answer; I grew up in Europe. The dominant media was of course Western media, more specifically American media, think Hollywood and Silicon Valley. It is extremely difficult to break out of that bubble.
- thomassmith65 10mo agoWell, that's true enough. I was bracing myself for something edgier. I don't know what I expected, "China has freer speech than America because Facebook censored antivax content" or something :)
- the_af 10mo agoYou seem to be arguing against strawmen. You picked a very fringe and bizarre belief (I honestly never read anything even remotely paraphrasing what you just typed) and made it seem so common that "as often as not" this is what people claim when they criticize the West. It reeks of dishonesty. This isn't defending "Liberal democracy" as you claimed in another comment, it's attacking dissenting opinions by picking (or creating) the worst, most bizarre argument possible and presenting it as the norm.
- thomassmith65 10mo agoWhat a mystifying comment. Cheers, though.
- the_af 10mo agoWhat is mystifying about it?
- thomassmith65 10mo agoWith respect, you seem immediately to have started out on the war path, and since then have been arguing with some imagined opponent (is he modeled on the 'love it or leave it, Tommy' character in Born on the Fourth of July?). Responding to your criticisms today - and hopefully you're just having an off day today - is a dull task. They show little engagement, aside from the fixation with small phrases like 'useful idiot', with what I actually write.