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> the selling point with the most traction is that you don't already need a working python install to get UV. And once you have UV, you can just go! I still ge

by zahlman 11mo ago

> the selling point with the most traction is that you don't already need a working python install to get UV. And once you have UV, you can just go! I still genuinely do not understand why this is a serious selling point. Linux systems commonly already provide (and heavily depend upon) a Python distribution which is perfectly suitable for creating virtual environments, and Python on Windows is provided by a traditional installer following the usual idioms for Windows end users. (To install uv on Windows I would be expected to use the PowerShell equivalent of a curl | sh trick; many people trying to learn to use Python on Windows have to be taught what cmd.exe is, never mind PowerShell.) If anything, new Python-on-Windows users are getting tripped up by the moving target of attempts to make it even easier (in part because of things Microsoft messed up when trying to coordinate with the CPython team; see for example https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58754860/cmd-opens-windows-store-when-i-type-python/70830617#70830617 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58754860/cmd-opens-windo... when it originally happened in Python 3.7). > If I had a dollar for every time I've helped somebody untangle the mess of python environment libraries created by an undocumented mix of python delivered through the distributions package management versus native pip versus manually installed... Sure, but that has everything to do with not understanding (or caring about) virtual environments (which are fundamental, and used by uv under the hood because there is really no viable alternative), and nothing to do with getting Python in the first place. I also don't know what you mean about "native pip" here; it seems like you're conflating the Python installation process with the package installation process.

oefrha 11mo ago
Linux systems commonly already provide an outdated system Python you don’t want to use, and it can’t be used to create a venv of a version you want to use. A single Python version for the entire system fundamentally doesn’t work for many people thanks to shitty compat story in the vast ecosystem. Even languages with great compat story are moving to support multi-toolchains natively. For instance, go 1.22 on Ubuntu 24.04 LTS is outdated, but it will automatically download the 1.25 toolchain when it seems go 1.25.0 in go.mod.
- zahlman 11mo ago
  > Linux systems commonly already provide an outdated system Python you don’t want to use Even with LTS Ubuntu updated only at EOL, Python will not be EOL most of the time. > A single Python version for the entire system fundamentally doesn’t work for many people thanks to shitty compat story in the vast ecosystem. My experience has been radically different. Everyone is trying their hardest to provide wheels for a wide range of platforms, and all the most popular projects succeed. Try adding `--only-binary=:all:` to your pip invocations and let me know the next time that actually causes a failure. Besides which, I was very specifically talking about the user story for people who are just learning to program and will use Python for it. Because otherwise this problem is trivially solved by anyone competent. In particular, building and installing Python from source is just the standard configure / make / make install dance, and it Just Works. I have done it many times and never needed any help to figure it out even though it was the first thing I tried to build from C source after switching to Linux.
  - vanviegen 11mo ago
    Sure. You do a source install every time you require a python version newer than system python. I'll be using uv for that though, as I'll be using it for its superior package management anyway.
  - oefrha 11mo ago
    For much of the ML/scientific ecosystem, you're lucky to get all your deps working with the latest minor version of Python six months to a year after its release. Random ML projects with hundreds to thousands of stars on GitHub may only work with a specific, rather ancient version of Python. > Because otherwise this problem is trivially solved by anyone competent. In particular, building and installing Python from source is just the standard configure / make / make install dance, and it Just Works. I have done it many times and never needed any help to figure it out even though it was the first thing I tried to build from C source after switching to Linux. I compiled the latest GCC many times with the standard configure / make / make install dance when I just started learning *nix command line. I even compiled gmp, mpfr, etc. many times. It Just Works. Do you compile your GCC every time before you compile your Python? Why not? It Just Works.
dent9 11mo ago
> I still genuinely do not understand why this is a serious selling point. Linux systems commonly already provide (and heavily depend upon) a Python distribution Sounds like you've never actually used Python. You should never, ever be using the system Python for anything you need to run yourself. Don't even touch it. It's a great way to break your entire system. Many distros have stopped providing it at all, for good reason. The first step every Python dev has to take on every single system they want to run their project on is to install their own sandboxed version of Python and it's libraries and it's library manager. Alternatively you pre build a docker container with it all packed inside which is the same basic thing. Better option still is to simply ditch Python and switch to compiled languages that don't have this stupid problems.

by zahlman 11mo ago

oefrha 11mo ago

Linux systems commonly already provide an outdated system Python you don’t want to use, and it can’t be used to create a venv of a version you want to use. A single Python version for the entire system fundamentally doesn’t work for many people thanks to shitty compat story in the vast ecosystem. Even languages with great compat story are moving to support multi-toolchains natively. For instance, go 1.22 on Ubuntu 24.04 LTS is outdated, but it will automatically download the 1.25 toolchain when it seems go 1.25.0 in go.mod.

zahlman 11mo ago
> Linux systems commonly already provide an outdated system Python you don’t want to use Even with LTS Ubuntu updated only at EOL, Python will not be EOL most of the time. > A single Python version for the entire system fundamentally doesn’t work for many people thanks to shitty compat story in the vast ecosystem. My experience has been radically different. Everyone is trying their hardest to provide wheels for a wide range of platforms, and all the most popular projects succeed. Try adding `--only-binary=:all:` to your pip invocations and let me know the next time that actually causes a failure. Besides which, I was very specifically talking about the user story for people who are just learning to program and will use Python for it. Because otherwise this problem is trivially solved by anyone competent. In particular, building and installing Python from source is just the standard configure / make / make install dance, and it Just Works. I have done it many times and never needed any help to figure it out even though it was the first thing I tried to build from C source after switching to Linux.
- vanviegen 11mo ago
  Sure. You do a source install every time you require a python version newer than system python. I'll be using uv for that though, as I'll be using it for its superior package management anyway.
- oefrha 11mo ago
  For much of the ML/scientific ecosystem, you're lucky to get all your deps working with the latest minor version of Python six months to a year after its release. Random ML projects with hundreds to thousands of stars on GitHub may only work with a specific, rather ancient version of Python. > Because otherwise this problem is trivially solved by anyone competent. In particular, building and installing Python from source is just the standard configure / make / make install dance, and it Just Works. I have done it many times and never needed any help to figure it out even though it was the first thing I tried to build from C source after switching to Linux. I compiled the latest GCC many times with the standard configure / make / make install dance when I just started learning *nix command line. I even compiled gmp, mpfr, etc. many times. It Just Works. Do you compile your GCC every time before you compile your Python? Why not? It Just Works.

dent9 11mo ago

> I still genuinely do not understand why this is a serious selling point. Linux systems commonly already provide (and heavily depend upon) a Python distribution Sounds like you've never actually used Python. You should never, ever be using the system Python for anything you need to run yourself. Don't even touch it. It's a great way to break your entire system. Many distros have stopped providing it at all, for good reason. The first step every Python dev has to take on every single system they want to run their project on is to install their own sandboxed version of Python and it's libraries and it's library manager. Alternatively you pre build a docker container with it all packed inside which is the same basic thing. Better option still is to simply ditch Python and switch to compiled languages that don't have this stupid problems.