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This. Folks trying to nullify his current position based on his recent work history alone with Google are deliberately trying to undermine his credibility throu

This. Folks trying to nullify his current position based on his recent work history alone with Google are deliberately trying to undermine his credibility through distraction tactics. Don’t upvote sealions.

Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago
Maybe its me but I had to look at the term sealioning and for context for other people According to merriam-webster, sealioning/sealions are: > 'Sealioning' is a form of trolling meant to exhaust the other debate participant with no intention of real discourse. > Sealioning refers to the disingenuous action by a commenter of making an ostensible effort to engage in sincere and serious civil debate, usually by asking persistent questions of the other commenter. These questions are phrased in a way that may come off as an effort to learn and engage with the subject at hand, but are really intended to erode the goodwill of the person to whom they are replying, to get them to appear impatient or to lash out, and therefore come off as unreasonable.
- squigz 10mo ago
  The issue: how do you know when someone is doing this vs genuinely trying to learn?
  - walterbell 10mo ago
    History
  - sbarre 10mo ago
    Experience
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - Forgeties79 10mo ago
    A person trying to learn doesn’t constantly disagree/contradict you and never express that their understanding has improved. A person sealioning always finds a reason to erode whatever you say with every response. At some point they need to nod or at least agree with something except in the most extreme cases. It also doesn’t help their case that they somehow have a such a starkly contradictory opinion on something they ostensibly don’t know anything/are legitimately asking questions about. They should ask a question or two and then just listen. It’s just one of those things that falls under “I know it when I see it.”
    - Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago
      One of the best things I read which genuinely has impact (I think) on me is the book, How to win friends and influence people. It fundamentally changed how I viewed debates etc. from a young age so I never really sea-lioned that much hopefully. But if I had to summarize the most useful and on topic quote from the book its that. "I may be wrong, I usually am" Lines like this give me a humble nature to fall back on. Even socrates said that the only thing I know is that I know nothing so if he doesn't know nothing, then chances are I can be wrong about things I know too. Knowing that you can be wrong gives an understanding that both of you are just discussing and not debating and as such the spirit becomes cooperative and not competitive. Although in all fairness, I should probably try to be a more keen listener but its something that I am working on too, any opinions on how to be a better listener too perhaps?
      - Forgeties79 10mo ago
        I definitely try to work on my listening every day, though I would say at best it’s been a mixed bag ha. Just something I’m always having to work on. I like the “does it need to be said by me right now?” test a lot when I can actually remember to apply it in the moment. I forgot where I learned it but somebody basically put it like this: Before you say anything, ask yourself 3 questions 1. Does it need to be said? 2. Does it need to be said by me? 3. Does it need to be said by me right now? You work your way down the list one at a time and if the answer is still yes by the time you hit 3, then go ahead.
- qcnguy 10mo ago
  Of course, that's exactly what someone who keeps losing debates would say about their opponents.
  - notahacker 10mo ago
    Of course, it's also the opinion of someone who had expressed no interest in debate in the first place when confronted by hordes of midwits "debating" them with exaggerated civility... starting off by asking if they had a source for their claim that the pope was a Catholic and if they did have a source for the claim that the Pope was a Catholic, clearly appealing to the authority of the Vatican on the matter was simply the Argumentum ad Verecundiam logical fallacy and they've been nothing but civil in demanding a point by point refutation of a three hour YouTube video in which a raving lunatic insists that the Pope is not a Catholic, and generally "winning debates" by having more time and willingness to indulge stupidity than people who weren't even particularly interested in being opponents... (I make no comment on the claims about Rob Pike, but look forward to people arguing I have the wrong opinion on him regardless ;)
SpicyLemonZest 10mo ago
The point isn’t that people who’ve worked for Google aren’t allowed to criticize. The point is that someone who chose to work for Google recently could not actually believe that building datacenters is “raping the planet”. He’s become a GenAI critic, and he knows GenAI critics get mad at datacenters, so he’s adopted extreme rhetoric about them without stopping to think about whether this makes sense or is consistent with his other beliefs.
- allturtles 10mo ago
  > The point is that someone who chose to work for Google recently could not actually believe that building datacenters is “raping the planet”. Of course they could. (1) People are capable of changing their minds. His opinion of data centers may have been changed recently by the rapid growth of data centers to support AI or for who knows what other reasons. (2) People are capable of cognitive dissonance. They can work for an organization that they believe to be bad or even evil.
  - SpicyLemonZest 10mo ago
    It’s possible, yes, for someone to change their mind. But this process comes with sympathy for all the people who haven’t yet had the realization, which doesn’t seem to be in evidence. Cognitive dissonance is, again, exactly my point. If you sat him down and asked him to describe in detail how some guy setting up a server rack is similar to a rapist, I’m pretty confident he’d admit the metaphor was overheated. But he didn’t sit himself down to ask.
    - TomatoCo 10mo ago
      I don't think he claimed that "some guy setting up a server rack" is similar to a rapist. I think he's blaming the corporations. I don't think that individuals can have that big of an effect on the environment (outliers like Thomas Midgley Jr. excepted, of course). I think "you people" is meant to mean the corporations in general, or if any one person is culpable, the CEOs. Who are definitely not just "some guy setting up a server rack."
tensor 10mo ago
"Fuck you I hate AI" isn't exactly a deep statement needing credibility. It's the same knee jerk lacking in nuance shit we see repeated over and over and over. If anyone were actually interested in a conversation there is probably one to be had about particular applications of gen-AI, but any flat out blanket statements like his are not worthy of any discussion. Gen-AI has plenty of uses that are very valuable to society. E.g. in science and medicine. Also, it's not "sealioning" to point out that if you're going to be righteous about a topic, perhaps it's worth recognizing your own fucking part in the thing you now hate, even if indirect.
- ori_b 10mo ago
  > perhaps it's worth recognizing your own fucking part in the thing you now hate, even if indirect. Would that be the part of the post where he apologizes for his part in creating this?
  - tensor 10mo ago
    That still doesn't make him credible on this topic nor does it make his rant anything more than a hateful rant in the big bucket of anti-AI shit posts. The guy worked for fucking Google. You literally can't be on a high horse having worked for Google for so long.
    - ori_b 10mo ago
      What a stupid take.

Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago

Maybe its me but I had to look at the term sealioning and for context for other people According to merriam-webster, sealioning/sealions are: > 'Sealioning' is a form of trolling meant to exhaust the other debate participant with no intention of real discourse. > Sealioning refers to the disingenuous action by a commenter of making an ostensible effort to engage in sincere and serious civil debate, usually by asking persistent questions of the other commenter. These questions are phrased in a way that may come off as an effort to learn and engage with the subject at hand, but are really intended to erode the goodwill of the person to whom they are replying, to get them to appear impatient or to lash out, and therefore come off as unreasonable.

squigz 10mo ago
The issue: how do you know when someone is doing this vs genuinely trying to learn?
- walterbell 10mo ago
  History
- sbarre 10mo ago
  Experience
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- Forgeties79 10mo ago
  A person trying to learn doesn’t constantly disagree/contradict you and never express that their understanding has improved. A person sealioning always finds a reason to erode whatever you say with every response. At some point they need to nod or at least agree with something except in the most extreme cases. It also doesn’t help their case that they somehow have a such a starkly contradictory opinion on something they ostensibly don’t know anything/are legitimately asking questions about. They should ask a question or two and then just listen. It’s just one of those things that falls under “I know it when I see it.”
  - Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago
    One of the best things I read which genuinely has impact (I think) on me is the book, How to win friends and influence people. It fundamentally changed how I viewed debates etc. from a young age so I never really sea-lioned that much hopefully. But if I had to summarize the most useful and on topic quote from the book its that. "I may be wrong, I usually am" Lines like this give me a humble nature to fall back on. Even socrates said that the only thing I know is that I know nothing so if he doesn't know nothing, then chances are I can be wrong about things I know too. Knowing that you can be wrong gives an understanding that both of you are just discussing and not debating and as such the spirit becomes cooperative and not competitive. Although in all fairness, I should probably try to be a more keen listener but its something that I am working on too, any opinions on how to be a better listener too perhaps?
    - Forgeties79 10mo ago
      I definitely try to work on my listening every day, though I would say at best it’s been a mixed bag ha. Just something I’m always having to work on. I like the “does it need to be said by me right now?” test a lot when I can actually remember to apply it in the moment. I forgot where I learned it but somebody basically put it like this: Before you say anything, ask yourself 3 questions 1. Does it need to be said? 2. Does it need to be said by me? 3. Does it need to be said by me right now? You work your way down the list one at a time and if the answer is still yes by the time you hit 3, then go ahead.
qcnguy 10mo ago
Of course, that's exactly what someone who keeps losing debates would say about their opponents.
- notahacker 10mo ago
  Of course, it's also the opinion of someone who had expressed no interest in debate in the first place when confronted by hordes of midwits "debating" them with exaggerated civility... starting off by asking if they had a source for their claim that the pope was a Catholic and if they did have a source for the claim that the Pope was a Catholic, clearly appealing to the authority of the Vatican on the matter was simply the Argumentum ad Verecundiam logical fallacy and they've been nothing but civil in demanding a point by point refutation of a three hour YouTube video in which a raving lunatic insists that the Pope is not a Catholic, and generally "winning debates" by having more time and willingness to indulge stupidity than people who weren't even particularly interested in being opponents... (I make no comment on the claims about Rob Pike, but look forward to people arguing I have the wrong opinion on him regardless ;)

SpicyLemonZest 10mo ago

The point isn’t that people who’ve worked for Google aren’t allowed to criticize. The point is that someone who chose to work for Google recently could not actually believe that building datacenters is “raping the planet”. He’s become a GenAI critic, and he knows GenAI critics get mad at datacenters, so he’s adopted extreme rhetoric about them without stopping to think about whether this makes sense or is consistent with his other beliefs.

allturtles 10mo ago
> The point is that someone who chose to work for Google recently could not actually believe that building datacenters is “raping the planet”. Of course they could. (1) People are capable of changing their minds. His opinion of data centers may have been changed recently by the rapid growth of data centers to support AI or for who knows what other reasons. (2) People are capable of cognitive dissonance. They can work for an organization that they believe to be bad or even evil.
- SpicyLemonZest 10mo ago
  It’s possible, yes, for someone to change their mind. But this process comes with sympathy for all the people who haven’t yet had the realization, which doesn’t seem to be in evidence. Cognitive dissonance is, again, exactly my point. If you sat him down and asked him to describe in detail how some guy setting up a server rack is similar to a rapist, I’m pretty confident he’d admit the metaphor was overheated. But he didn’t sit himself down to ask.
  - TomatoCo 10mo ago
    I don't think he claimed that "some guy setting up a server rack" is similar to a rapist. I think he's blaming the corporations. I don't think that individuals can have that big of an effect on the environment (outliers like Thomas Midgley Jr. excepted, of course). I think "you people" is meant to mean the corporations in general, or if any one person is culpable, the CEOs. Who are definitely not just "some guy setting up a server rack."

tensor 10mo ago

"Fuck you I hate AI" isn't exactly a deep statement needing credibility. It's the same knee jerk lacking in nuance shit we see repeated over and over and over. If anyone were actually interested in a conversation there is probably one to be had about particular applications of gen-AI, but any flat out blanket statements like his are not worthy of any discussion. Gen-AI has plenty of uses that are very valuable to society. E.g. in science and medicine. Also, it's not "sealioning" to point out that if you're going to be righteous about a topic, perhaps it's worth recognizing your own fucking part in the thing you now hate, even if indirect.

ori_b 10mo ago
> perhaps it's worth recognizing your own fucking part in the thing you now hate, even if indirect. Would that be the part of the post where he apologizes for his part in creating this?
- tensor 10mo ago
  That still doesn't make him credible on this topic nor does it make his rant anything more than a hateful rant in the big bucket of anti-AI shit posts. The guy worked for fucking Google. You literally can't be on a high horse having worked for Google for so long.
  - ori_b 10mo ago
    What a stupid take.