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> You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the

> You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and buying a new one each time. This dismissal of the feature is bizarrely shortsighted. The main things I keep long term are the drives and power supply, and those can be kept on most laptops too. In the medium term I get a lot of use out of separately upgrading CPU and GPU, but most frameworks can't do that. The 16 gets half a point in that category because the options are still very limited. A Framework lets me keep the same screen which is cool. And it lets me keep the same chassis which is not as beneficial if it's not a particularly good chassis. If I'm generous, the extra flexibility in a Framework would save me $200 every 5-8 years. Which leaves me in the hole, further if I'm less generous. I hope they reach a scale where they can price things better, and I'm willing to pay some extra for what they do, but not as much as they currently charge. Looking at Framework's site I can get the same specs as the author for $1800. Lenovo offers a model with a worse screen but otherwise the same specs for $600. Gigabyte has a fully matching model plus bonus GPU for $1150, and for half of November it was on sale for $1000. And if you want an RTX 5070 then Framework is $2500 and Gigabyte is $1350.

goku12 11mo ago
I think a major clarification is in order here. I'm not talking about just the framework here. If anything, the problems with framework is the direct result of the absolutely stupid industry-wide product design culture and market tastes. You can see all the major open-ish hardware designers grappling with similar issues - pinephone, System76, Librem... I will explain later why it is so. But here is the point - we need a major shift in both the product design culture and the (non-existent) consumer culture. Back in the days of modular desktop PCs (which is still alive, but barely holding on and slowly fading away) about a couple of decades ago, there would have been immediate and sharp backlash if any hardware manufacturer pulled the tricks that they do today - soldered-on RAM modules, thermoplastic glue instead of screws, riveted keyboards, irreplaceable ICs that are paired using crypto, permanently locked firmware, etc. That would have shook their sales enough for them to care. Right now, these 'features' lead to short-life hardware (because any broken parts mean everything has to be thrown out), landfills full of e-waste, frequent new purchases, etc. It does nothing good for anyone or the ecosystem, except filling the pockets of trillion dollar MNCs. The advantage of such consumer pressure is that you'd have a vibrant spare parts market with much more choices. Many people here are complaining about how poor the spare parts market is. Had the consumer choice been more on the side of modularity and reusability, that problem wouldn't have even arisen. It wouldn't be just framework who manufactures such things. In fact, you wouldn't even be able to decide the brand name of the laptop as a whole. Another point is that you're still thinking about laptops as a unit, instead of as a collection of parts. And that would be the case if the industry spent more resources and effort into it. It doesn't have to be bulky as you imagine either. Hardware interfaces, housing and fasteners would have evolved to a more compact, universal and standard form, much like how a dozen different ports were replaced by USB. Right now, you're thinking about how you can transplant parts from your old laptop to the new one. Instead, you could swap parts of a laptop one at a time. Currently, the CPU and GPU cannot be swapped like in a desktop PC. You have to make do with replacing the whole motherboard now. But has anybody demanded replaceable CPUs and GPUs for these? Why are those precluded? Now about why framework, System76, Librem, Pinephone, etc have problems making such devices. The choices they get is abysmally small. The OEMs and component manufacturers (mostly from China) have created this supply-chain system where they involve in huge-scale exclusive contracts. It's simply too hard to get a fully compatible chipset without signing an NDA that effectively ruins your chances at making open or modular hardware. Those companies are doing an impressive job at making these hardware with what they have. You may want to dismiss me as too idealistic and dreaming about what could be, instead of dealing with what it is now. But let me point out why we never catch a break. The tech community takes an obstinate and imprudent 'all or nothing' approach to everything. 'Framework is not good because it's too costly, modules are not good enough, GPU cannot be replaced, yada, yada'. Nobody is willing to settle for anything less than perfect. But you need to realize that you are not in the bargaining position here - you don't hold the cards. Your choices are dictated by someone else who is more resourceful and patient in making short-term compromises and playing the long game of shaping the market and making insane profits at the end. The only way to get your way is for everyone to unite and show even more resolve and patience in demanding what you want. That means putting up with some inconveniences for now. But everyone will be rewarded at the end with the perfection you demand.
- wqaatwt 11mo ago
  > soldered-on RAM modules That can have significant performance advantages, though. Which might be hard to overcome due to physics
  - swiftcoder 11mo ago
    Worth noting that even Framework's own desktop has soldered-on RAM, for exactly this reason
    - jdujfkhllhl 11mo ago
      And that was even after constructive cooperation with amd. Now think about the more common, hostile, interaction many suppliers provide.
      - dngray 11mo ago
        It's also worth noting the CAMM2 ram gets about the same performance.
        cosmic_cheese 11mo ago
        Framework has stated that it asked AMD if there were any way to make the RAM on Ryzen AI Max APUs (like used in the Framework Desktop) socketed, and AMD said no due to the stability hit that’d entail — the physical distance from the CPU that’d be required with RAM sockets reduces signal integrity too much for it to function.
        Dylan16807 11mo ago
        Which is weird. The entire point of [LP]CAMM[2] is to be able to make that work. The Framework desktop clocks the memory at 8000MHz. That's well within the limits of the interface. Something is flawed or omitted in those CPUs if they can't handle it.
  - 11mo ago
pkphilip 11mo ago
> If I'm generous, the extra flexibility in a Framework would save me $200 every 5-8 years. Which leaves me in the hole, further if I'm less generous. I think this statement is heavily underestimating the value of a repairable /user serviceable computer. The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is the same as the value proposition for open source for software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make the changes you want to make IF you want to make them. But as it is with open source software, most users are never going to be directly editing the code for postgres, Linux, or any of the other 1000s of open source software that they use on a daily basis - but IF they choose to do so, they can.
- Dylan16807 11mo ago
  > The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is the same as the value proposition for open source for software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make the changes you want to make IF you want to make them. This is true to an extent, but I think that's greatly overselling it when phrased that way. 90% of my customization is either during the initial purchase, or it's a RAM/drive upgrade, and I don't need Framework for that. It's only a small portion of customization I lose out on. And in some ways I actually have more ability to customize outside of Framework, for example they only offer two GPU models.
  - pkphilip 11mo ago
    That is my point. Most users - such as yourself, will not make use of the freedom a Framework device provides but there are others who will directly benefit from it. And that freedom is essential. To use a vehicle analogy - it is the same as getting a car which has parts you can opt to change/replace. Most people may not even be able to do an oil change but this "feature" is nonetheless a VERY important one to have.
    - Dylan16807 11mo ago
      My point was that even for people that benefit, the benefit is greatly reduced. Let's dig in to why it's useful to be able to replace parts on a car. If we analogize the extra flexibility of the Framework to being able to replace all these parts in the engine bay, that sounds really cool, until you realize there are no third party options for the core components and Framework only makes a couple versions. It's still useful in a few circumstances, but it's not this massive unlock of freedom. You can't have a fully customized engine, and the best way to get an engine tailored to your tastes is to abandon the weak after-the-fact customization and go find something that you like from the start. Even to a user that really values freedom, Framework doesn't properly deliver at this point in time. The Framework freedom is so restricted that in most ways you get more freedom by considering all the non-soldered-RAM laptops from other brands as valid options too. Edit: And I don't mean this as an indictment of their small company, they're trying, but right now the impact is limited in many ways.
p_ing 11mo ago
> A Framework lets me keep the same screen which is cool Probably the last thing I'd want to keep. Screen technology still moves forward at a decent pace. Screens are disposable, backlights fade over time, pixels get stuck, screen burn-in. The only universal thing I can think of about machines I've upgraded over the years (not laptops, of course) are cases, power supplies, CPU coolers, and as long as the form factor hasn't changed/there hasn't been significant progress, HDD. Everything else goes with the system. New CPU meant new socket, which also meant new RAM. Need to get rid of that old video card, of course.

goku12 11mo ago

I think a major clarification is in order here. I'm not talking about just the framework here. If anything, the problems with framework is the direct result of the absolutely stupid industry-wide product design culture and market tastes. You can see all the major open-ish hardware designers grappling with similar issues - pinephone, System76, Librem... I will explain later why it is so. But here is the point - we need a major shift in both the product design culture and the (non-existent) consumer culture. Back in the days of modular desktop PCs (which is still alive, but barely holding on and slowly fading away) about a couple of decades ago, there would have been immediate and sharp backlash if any hardware manufacturer pulled the tricks that they do today - soldered-on RAM modules, thermoplastic glue instead of screws, riveted keyboards, irreplaceable ICs that are paired using crypto, permanently locked firmware, etc. That would have shook their sales enough for them to care. Right now, these 'features' lead to short-life hardware (because any broken parts mean everything has to be thrown out), landfills full of e-waste, frequent new purchases, etc. It does nothing good for anyone or the ecosystem, except filling the pockets of trillion dollar MNCs. The advantage of such consumer pressure is that you'd have a vibrant spare parts market with much more choices. Many people here are complaining about how poor the spare parts market is. Had the consumer choice been more on the side of modularity and reusability, that problem wouldn't have even arisen. It wouldn't be just framework who manufactures such things. In fact, you wouldn't even be able to decide the brand name of the laptop as a whole. Another point is that you're still thinking about laptops as a unit, instead of as a collection of parts. And that would be the case if the industry spent more resources and effort into it. It doesn't have to be bulky as you imagine either. Hardware interfaces, housing and fasteners would have evolved to a more compact, universal and standard form, much like how a dozen different ports were replaced by USB. Right now, you're thinking about how you can transplant parts from your old laptop to the new one. Instead, you could swap parts of a laptop one at a time. Currently, the CPU and GPU cannot be swapped like in a desktop PC. You have to make do with replacing the whole motherboard now. But has anybody demanded replaceable CPUs and GPUs for these? Why are those precluded? Now about why framework, System76, Librem, Pinephone, etc have problems making such devices. The choices they get is abysmally small. The OEMs and component manufacturers (mostly from China) have created this supply-chain system where they involve in huge-scale exclusive contracts. It's simply too hard to get a fully compatible chipset without signing an NDA that effectively ruins your chances at making open or modular hardware. Those companies are doing an impressive job at making these hardware with what they have. You may want to dismiss me as too idealistic and dreaming about what could be, instead of dealing with what it is now. But let me point out why we never catch a break. The tech community takes an obstinate and imprudent 'all or nothing' approach to everything. 'Framework is not good because it's too costly, modules are not good enough, GPU cannot be replaced, yada, yada'. Nobody is willing to settle for anything less than perfect. But you need to realize that you are not in the bargaining position here - you don't hold the cards. Your choices are dictated by someone else who is more resourceful and patient in making short-term compromises and playing the long game of shaping the market and making insane profits at the end. The only way to get your way is for everyone to unite and show even more resolve and patience in demanding what you want. That means putting up with some inconveniences for now. But everyone will be rewarded at the end with the perfection you demand.

wqaatwt 11mo ago
> soldered-on RAM modules That can have significant performance advantages, though. Which might be hard to overcome due to physics
- swiftcoder 11mo ago
  Worth noting that even Framework's own desktop has soldered-on RAM, for exactly this reason
  - jdujfkhllhl 11mo ago
    And that was even after constructive cooperation with amd. Now think about the more common, hostile, interaction many suppliers provide.
    - dngray 11mo ago
      It's also worth noting the CAMM2 ram gets about the same performance.
      - cosmic_cheese 11mo ago
        Framework has stated that it asked AMD if there were any way to make the RAM on Ryzen AI Max APUs (like used in the Framework Desktop) socketed, and AMD said no due to the stability hit that’d entail — the physical distance from the CPU that’d be required with RAM sockets reduces signal integrity too much for it to function.
        Dylan16807 11mo ago
        Which is weird. The entire point of [LP]CAMM[2] is to be able to make that work. The Framework desktop clocks the memory at 8000MHz. That's well within the limits of the interface. Something is flawed or omitted in those CPUs if they can't handle it.
- 11mo ago

pkphilip 11mo ago

> If I'm generous, the extra flexibility in a Framework would save me $200 every 5-8 years. Which leaves me in the hole, further if I'm less generous. I think this statement is heavily underestimating the value of a repairable /user serviceable computer. The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is the same as the value proposition for open source for software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make the changes you want to make IF you want to make them. But as it is with open source software, most users are never going to be directly editing the code for postgres, Linux, or any of the other 1000s of open source software that they use on a daily basis - but IF they choose to do so, they can.

Dylan16807 11mo ago
> The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is the same as the value proposition for open source for software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make the changes you want to make IF you want to make them. This is true to an extent, but I think that's greatly overselling it when phrased that way. 90% of my customization is either during the initial purchase, or it's a RAM/drive upgrade, and I don't need Framework for that. It's only a small portion of customization I lose out on. And in some ways I actually have more ability to customize outside of Framework, for example they only offer two GPU models.
- pkphilip 11mo ago
  That is my point. Most users - such as yourself, will not make use of the freedom a Framework device provides but there are others who will directly benefit from it. And that freedom is essential. To use a vehicle analogy - it is the same as getting a car which has parts you can opt to change/replace. Most people may not even be able to do an oil change but this "feature" is nonetheless a VERY important one to have.
  - Dylan16807 11mo ago
    My point was that even for people that benefit, the benefit is greatly reduced. Let's dig in to why it's useful to be able to replace parts on a car. If we analogize the extra flexibility of the Framework to being able to replace all these parts in the engine bay, that sounds really cool, until you realize there are no third party options for the core components and Framework only makes a couple versions. It's still useful in a few circumstances, but it's not this massive unlock of freedom. You can't have a fully customized engine, and the best way to get an engine tailored to your tastes is to abandon the weak after-the-fact customization and go find something that you like from the start. Even to a user that really values freedom, Framework doesn't properly deliver at this point in time. The Framework freedom is so restricted that in most ways you get more freedom by considering all the non-soldered-RAM laptops from other brands as valid options too. Edit: And I don't mean this as an indictment of their small company, they're trying, but right now the impact is limited in many ways.

p_ing 11mo ago

> A Framework lets me keep the same screen which is cool Probably the last thing I'd want to keep. Screen technology still moves forward at a decent pace. Screens are disposable, backlights fade over time, pixels get stuck, screen burn-in. The only universal thing I can think of about machines I've upgraded over the years (not laptops, of course) are cases, power supplies, CPU coolers, and as long as the form factor hasn't changed/there hasn't been significant progress, HDD. Everything else goes with the system. New CPU meant new socket, which also meant new RAM. Need to get rid of that old video card, of course.