7 ms·

Last time I checked, China's state-owned enterprises aren't all that invested in developing AI chatbots, so I imagine that the amount of control the central gov

by KlayLay 9mo ago

Last time I checked, China's state-owned enterprises aren't all that invested in developing AI chatbots, so I imagine that the amount of control the central government has is about as much as their control over any tech company. If anything, China's AI industry has been described as under-regulated by people like Jensen Huang. A technology created by a certain set of people will naturally come to reflect the views of said people, even in areas where people act like it's neutral (e.g., cameras that are biased towards people with lighter skin). This is the case for all AI models—Chinese, American, European, etc.—so I wouldn't dub one that censors information they don't like as propaganda just because we like it, since we naturally have our own version of that. The actual chatbots, themselves, seem to be relatively useful.

Workaccount2 9mo ago
China is a communist country, every company is defacto under the states control. It might not feel like that on the ground, the leash has been getting looser, but the leash is still 100% there. Don't make the childish mistake of thinking China is just USA 2.0
- Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
  Agreed, my point was that the leash was there so most likely if the news gets released to the public, it means that they must have definitely used "that leash" a lot privately too so the news might/does have a deeper impact than one might think but it can be hidden. So like even now although I can trust chinese models, who knows for how long their private discussions have been happening and for how long chinese govt has been using that leash privately and for chatbots like glm 4.7 and similar. I am not sure why china would actively come out and say they are enforcing tough rules tho, doesn't make much sense for a country who loves being private.
- _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
  I stress about China because I'm pushed to. But I feel like we're all getting caught up and letting things go ways they shouldn't. 10 years ago when I did some work in China the companies were privately owned and just had a party member or two inside. It was different, but not what I had built up in my head. We went to some singing and drinking things, and the party members were just normal humans with normal human motivation when you got them to talk after a few drinks. Hell the ones I met were educated in the USA. The damage internet discourse is doing between us all frankly seems the worst threat. Look at the H1B discourse. We hate a shitty American policy abused by AMERICAN companies, yet it gets turned against humans who happen to be from India. We gotta not do that. We gotta not let things between China and us get so out of control. This is going to sound America hating but look at how people see us Americans, it's not good. But we know we aren't as bad as they say. China has done things anathema to me. But the US has too. We have to work outside that. We have to. We have to. We have to get out of this feedback loop. We have to be adults and not play this emotional ping-pong.
  - Supermancho 9mo ago
    > and just had a party member or two inside This is exactly what I imagine and it's as chilling as anything ICE does openly or US insurance companies do to keep their bottom line moving up, because the ramifications are realized in silence. The silence is ensured by the same "regular" people in China.
  - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
    Yes I 100% agree with you. Thanks for your insight. > We have to be adults and not play this emotional ping-pong. Your message does inspire me but I feel as if there rather isn't anything which can be done individually about the situations of both china and america or any country for that matter. To me its shocking as how much can change if we as a community do something compared to something individual but also the fact that an individual must still try even if people aren't backing them up to stand for their morals and how effortless it can be for a community if they act reasonable and then listen to individuals who genuinely want to help There is both hope and sadness in this fact depending on the faith they have in humans in general. I think humans are mostly really good people overall but we all have contrary opinions which try pushing things so radically different that we cancel each other out or negate I genuinely have hope that if the system can grow, humans can grow too. I have no doubt in the faith I have on an individual level with people but I have doubt in my faith at mass level Like I wasn't saying that those chinese individuals in companies would be loyal to the chinese party beyond everything but rather I feel like at mass/combine it to something which happens to every company basically and then I have doubts of faith in the system (and for good measure) I am genuinely curious but when you mention we have to be adults, what exactly does that really mean at a mass scale. Like (assuming) if I gave you the ability to say one exact message to everybody at the same time, what would the message be for the benefit of mankind itself and so we stop infighting itself perhaps too? I am super curious to know about that
- mullingitover 9mo ago
  > every company is defacto under the states control. This is kind of a nonsensical statement. Every US company is also de facto under US control, too. They're all subject to US laws. Beyond that, as demonstrated by the recent inauguration, the US oligarchs are demonstrably political pawns who regularly make pilgrimages to the White House to offer token gifts and clap like trained seals. You can't hold up the US as some kind of beacon of freedom from state control anymore, for the past year all the major industrial leaders have been openly prostrating themselves to the state.
  - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
    > You can't hold up the US as some kind of beacon of freedom from state control anymore 100% agree. I never said that America is a beacon of freedom. To be honest, its Europe for me which still has overall more freedom and less blatant corruption than America's blatant corruption right now I was just merely stating that these are on a scale though. European freedom (think proton or similar,yes I know proton's swiss but still) > America's freedom > China's freedom Its just that in my parent comment I had mentioned America models solely because they are still better than China's in terms of freedom. Europe already got mistral but an European SOTA model does feel like it would have advantages.
  - Workaccount2 9mo ago
    The US has a constitution and courts. Companies win against the government all the time. China has no such thing. It's just the will of Xi.
    - mullingitover 9mo ago
      > The US has a constitution and courts. Companies win against the government all the time. Again: a nonsensical statement, China also has a constitution and courts, Chinese companies prevail in lawsuits against their government[1][2]. Your turn, name some top-tier US companies which have gone against the party and the regime in the past year. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/1cddb8cc-a7ac-11e4-8e78-00144feab7de https://www.ft.com/content/1cddb8cc-a7ac-11e4-8e78-00144feab... [2] https://chineseft.net/story/001076244/en https://chineseft.net/story/001076244/en
- KlayLay 9mo ago
  Yes, but that's the case for any company under any state. Do you believe that Apple is not under the US government's control just because they're allowed to criticize them?
  - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
    Apple can still fight against US government if they want. We are taking the example of the largest company in america tho so ofc they might want to take favour from govt so if govt requests them they will do something But this is because they are an extremely large company but on the other hand, there can be smaller companies in america who can actually be independent yet the same just isn't possible in china. Also even with things like apple, they don't really unlock computers for the govt. https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/answers/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/answers/ So in a way, yeah. Not sure about the current oligarchy / kiss-the-ring type of deal they might have but that seems a problem of america's authoritarianism and not the fault of the democratic model itself
  - Workaccount2 9mo ago
    Apple quite publicly defied the FBI with encryption and won. Tim Cook didn't disappear either. Now ask Jack Ma about the time he even criticized regulations, much less defied them...
    - mullingitover 9mo ago
      > and won. They didn't win, the phone was broken into with the help of a third party (so ultimately Apple actually did give the government a backdoor, unofficially) so the court case was mooted. Apple never actually defied the US legal system. > Now ask Jack Ma Ask ABC about their FCC license when they publish speech critical of the regime[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_Jimmy_Kimmel_Live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_Jimmy_Kimmel_Liv...!
      - Workaccount2 9mo ago
        No, they won. They never put a backdoor in. Not sure how finding an exploit in software means the company is compliant. Microsoft would be criminally liable for untold damage if that was the case. Kimmels bosses were kissing the ring. But it's unlikely there was real threat. The courts have been shooting Trumps authoritarian dreams down left and right. China has no (legitimate) courts.

by KlayLay 9mo ago

Workaccount2 9mo ago

China is a communist country, every company is defacto under the states control. It might not feel like that on the ground, the leash has been getting looser, but the leash is still 100% there. Don't make the childish mistake of thinking China is just USA 2.0

Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
Agreed, my point was that the leash was there so most likely if the news gets released to the public, it means that they must have definitely used "that leash" a lot privately too so the news might/does have a deeper impact than one might think but it can be hidden. So like even now although I can trust chinese models, who knows for how long their private discussions have been happening and for how long chinese govt has been using that leash privately and for chatbots like glm 4.7 and similar. I am not sure why china would actively come out and say they are enforcing tough rules tho, doesn't make much sense for a country who loves being private.
_DeadFred_ 9mo ago
I stress about China because I'm pushed to. But I feel like we're all getting caught up and letting things go ways they shouldn't. 10 years ago when I did some work in China the companies were privately owned and just had a party member or two inside. It was different, but not what I had built up in my head. We went to some singing and drinking things, and the party members were just normal humans with normal human motivation when you got them to talk after a few drinks. Hell the ones I met were educated in the USA. The damage internet discourse is doing between us all frankly seems the worst threat. Look at the H1B discourse. We hate a shitty American policy abused by AMERICAN companies, yet it gets turned against humans who happen to be from India. We gotta not do that. We gotta not let things between China and us get so out of control. This is going to sound America hating but look at how people see us Americans, it's not good. But we know we aren't as bad as they say. China has done things anathema to me. But the US has too. We have to work outside that. We have to. We have to. We have to get out of this feedback loop. We have to be adults and not play this emotional ping-pong.
- Supermancho 9mo ago
  > and just had a party member or two inside This is exactly what I imagine and it's as chilling as anything ICE does openly or US insurance companies do to keep their bottom line moving up, because the ramifications are realized in silence. The silence is ensured by the same "regular" people in China.
- Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
  Yes I 100% agree with you. Thanks for your insight. > We have to be adults and not play this emotional ping-pong. Your message does inspire me but I feel as if there rather isn't anything which can be done individually about the situations of both china and america or any country for that matter. To me its shocking as how much can change if we as a community do something compared to something individual but also the fact that an individual must still try even if people aren't backing them up to stand for their morals and how effortless it can be for a community if they act reasonable and then listen to individuals who genuinely want to help There is both hope and sadness in this fact depending on the faith they have in humans in general. I think humans are mostly really good people overall but we all have contrary opinions which try pushing things so radically different that we cancel each other out or negate I genuinely have hope that if the system can grow, humans can grow too. I have no doubt in the faith I have on an individual level with people but I have doubt in my faith at mass level Like I wasn't saying that those chinese individuals in companies would be loyal to the chinese party beyond everything but rather I feel like at mass/combine it to something which happens to every company basically and then I have doubts of faith in the system (and for good measure) I am genuinely curious but when you mention we have to be adults, what exactly does that really mean at a mass scale. Like (assuming) if I gave you the ability to say one exact message to everybody at the same time, what would the message be for the benefit of mankind itself and so we stop infighting itself perhaps too? I am super curious to know about that
mullingitover 9mo ago
> every company is defacto under the states control. This is kind of a nonsensical statement. Every US company is also de facto under US control, too. They're all subject to US laws. Beyond that, as demonstrated by the recent inauguration, the US oligarchs are demonstrably political pawns who regularly make pilgrimages to the White House to offer token gifts and clap like trained seals. You can't hold up the US as some kind of beacon of freedom from state control anymore, for the past year all the major industrial leaders have been openly prostrating themselves to the state.
- Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
  > You can't hold up the US as some kind of beacon of freedom from state control anymore 100% agree. I never said that America is a beacon of freedom. To be honest, its Europe for me which still has overall more freedom and less blatant corruption than America's blatant corruption right now I was just merely stating that these are on a scale though. European freedom (think proton or similar,yes I know proton's swiss but still) > America's freedom > China's freedom Its just that in my parent comment I had mentioned America models solely because they are still better than China's in terms of freedom. Europe already got mistral but an European SOTA model does feel like it would have advantages.
- Workaccount2 9mo ago
  The US has a constitution and courts. Companies win against the government all the time. China has no such thing. It's just the will of Xi.
  - mullingitover 9mo ago
    > The US has a constitution and courts. Companies win against the government all the time. Again: a nonsensical statement, China also has a constitution and courts, Chinese companies prevail in lawsuits against their government[1][2]. Your turn, name some top-tier US companies which have gone against the party and the regime in the past year. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/1cddb8cc-a7ac-11e4-8e78-00144feab7de https://www.ft.com/content/1cddb8cc-a7ac-11e4-8e78-00144feab... [2] https://chineseft.net/story/001076244/en https://chineseft.net/story/001076244/en
KlayLay 9mo ago
Yes, but that's the case for any company under any state. Do you believe that Apple is not under the US government's control just because they're allowed to criticize them?
- Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
  Apple can still fight against US government if they want. We are taking the example of the largest company in america tho so ofc they might want to take favour from govt so if govt requests them they will do something But this is because they are an extremely large company but on the other hand, there can be smaller companies in america who can actually be independent yet the same just isn't possible in china. Also even with things like apple, they don't really unlock computers for the govt. https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/answers/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/answers/ So in a way, yeah. Not sure about the current oligarchy / kiss-the-ring type of deal they might have but that seems a problem of america's authoritarianism and not the fault of the democratic model itself
- Workaccount2 9mo ago
  Apple quite publicly defied the FBI with encryption and won. Tim Cook didn't disappear either. Now ask Jack Ma about the time he even criticized regulations, much less defied them...
  - mullingitover 9mo ago
    > and won. They didn't win, the phone was broken into with the help of a third party (so ultimately Apple actually did give the government a backdoor, unofficially) so the court case was mooted. Apple never actually defied the US legal system. > Now ask Jack Ma Ask ABC about their FCC license when they publish speech critical of the regime[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_Jimmy_Kimmel_Live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_Jimmy_Kimmel_Liv...!
    - Workaccount2 9mo ago
      No, they won. They never put a backdoor in. Not sure how finding an exploit in software means the company is compliant. Microsoft would be criminally liable for untold damage if that was the case. Kimmels bosses were kissing the ring. But it's unlikely there was real threat. The courts have been shooting Trumps authoritarian dreams down left and right. China has no (legitimate) courts.