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I think you're missing the implied cause and effect here. Lighthanded regulations allow for ridiculous amounts of wealth to be acquired in the U.S. Larry Elliso

I think you're missing the implied cause and effect here. Lighthanded regulations allow for ridiculous amounts of wealth to be acquired in the U.S. Larry Ellison, Elon Musk, etc. are so unfathomably rich (and therefore powerful), they can now trivially bend government to their will.

api 10mo ago
I don't entirely disagree, but also note that the extreme wealth of both these guys is at least partly a result of state spending not pure private market forces. Oracle has always had a huge presence in government. Large companies too, but Federal use has really helped keep them afloat as open source and competing products that are far cheaper have eaten their lunch. For Musk the case is even more extreme. Tesla's early growth was bankrolled by EV credits and carbon offsets, which were state programs, and SpaceX is a result of both Federal funding and direct R&D transfer from NASA to SpaceX. The latter was mostly uncompensated. NASA just handed over decades of publicly funded R&D. These two would probably be rich without the state, but would they be this rich? The same was true back in the original Gilded Age. The "robber barons" were built by railroad and other infrastructure subsidies. However I do agree that private wealth beyond a certain point begins to pose a risk to democracy and the rule of law. It's a major weakness in libertarian schemes that call for a "separation of economy and state." That's a much, much harder wall to maintain than separation of church and state. Enough money can buy politicians and elections.
- the_gastropod 10mo ago
  Let’s remember: Musk bought Tesla. He was already ridiculously wealthy in order to get himself into this position of basically robbing the U.S. government.
  - api 10mo ago
    This is true but he was nowhere near as wealthy as he is now, not even close.
    - the_gastropod 10mo ago
      Of course. That was also my point, as I think it is yours. There is an event horizon after which an individual can corrupt government and really accelerate their wealth accumulation even faster.
      - ElectronCharge 10mo ago
        What you see as “corrupt government” others see as a “virtuous cycle”… The main problem with your thought process is that your conflating “wealth accumulation” with “wealth creation”!
- raw_anon_1111 10mo ago
  As much as I don’t like Musk and think Tesla is overvalued meme stock and the cars suck compared to other EVs (I have driven a lot of EVs during the year that we went without a car on purpose - long story), SpaceX did something that the government couldn’t do - have a lot of failures before it had a success. Politics wouldn’t let it happen.
hypeatei 10mo ago
Peel it back even more: how does any State not fall victim to monied interests? This is usually handwaved away by socalists in the sense that everything is handled by "independent commissions" that can totally not be corrupted. The solution is really to keep the scope of government small so that any corruption isn't detrimental to the populace, and they can handle it in the next election.
- ModernMech 10mo ago
  That's not a solution, that just removes an opponent of monied interests from the table entirely, it's exactly what they want. The only thing these people want more than a government they can capture is a government so small they can replace it entirely.
- dpark 10mo ago
  > The solution is really to keep the scope of government small Of course. Politically active billionaires are always famously lobbying for large government and more regulations.
- nielsbot 10mo ago
  Small government leads to big capitalism which is its own kind of tyranny. Our current problems are not because government is too big. Powerful regulation which answers to the people is the answer.
  - _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
    Small government goes against the original and deepest Capitalist thinkers, who all pushed that strong government oversight was a REQUIRED part of Capitalism to keep it healthy and in balance.
- the_gastropod 10mo ago
  Which countries on the planet do you think are the least corrupt? What does their system of government look like?
websiteapi 10mo ago
Isn’t the cause that people just happened to elect someone who doesn’t care and is corrupt? Are you implying money decided the election? How do you reconcile this with the fact that trump was outspent?
- ethbr1 10mo ago
  "Outspent" is a nebulous concept, post-Citizens United.

api 10mo ago

I don't entirely disagree, but also note that the extreme wealth of both these guys is at least partly a result of state spending not pure private market forces. Oracle has always had a huge presence in government. Large companies too, but Federal use has really helped keep them afloat as open source and competing products that are far cheaper have eaten their lunch. For Musk the case is even more extreme. Tesla's early growth was bankrolled by EV credits and carbon offsets, which were state programs, and SpaceX is a result of both Federal funding and direct R&D transfer from NASA to SpaceX. The latter was mostly uncompensated. NASA just handed over decades of publicly funded R&D. These two would probably be rich without the state, but would they be this rich? The same was true back in the original Gilded Age. The "robber barons" were built by railroad and other infrastructure subsidies. However I do agree that private wealth beyond a certain point begins to pose a risk to democracy and the rule of law. It's a major weakness in libertarian schemes that call for a "separation of economy and state." That's a much, much harder wall to maintain than separation of church and state. Enough money can buy politicians and elections.

the_gastropod 10mo ago
Let’s remember: Musk bought Tesla. He was already ridiculously wealthy in order to get himself into this position of basically robbing the U.S. government.
- api 10mo ago
  This is true but he was nowhere near as wealthy as he is now, not even close.
  - the_gastropod 10mo ago
    Of course. That was also my point, as I think it is yours. There is an event horizon after which an individual can corrupt government and really accelerate their wealth accumulation even faster.
    - ElectronCharge 10mo ago
      What you see as “corrupt government” others see as a “virtuous cycle”… The main problem with your thought process is that your conflating “wealth accumulation” with “wealth creation”!
raw_anon_1111 10mo ago
As much as I don’t like Musk and think Tesla is overvalued meme stock and the cars suck compared to other EVs (I have driven a lot of EVs during the year that we went without a car on purpose - long story), SpaceX did something that the government couldn’t do - have a lot of failures before it had a success. Politics wouldn’t let it happen.

hypeatei 10mo ago

Peel it back even more: how does any State not fall victim to monied interests? This is usually handwaved away by socalists in the sense that everything is handled by "independent commissions" that can totally not be corrupted. The solution is really to keep the scope of government small so that any corruption isn't detrimental to the populace, and they can handle it in the next election.

ModernMech 10mo ago
That's not a solution, that just removes an opponent of monied interests from the table entirely, it's exactly what they want. The only thing these people want more than a government they can capture is a government so small they can replace it entirely.
dpark 10mo ago
> The solution is really to keep the scope of government small Of course. Politically active billionaires are always famously lobbying for large government and more regulations.
nielsbot 10mo ago
Small government leads to big capitalism which is its own kind of tyranny. Our current problems are not because government is too big. Powerful regulation which answers to the people is the answer.
- _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
  Small government goes against the original and deepest Capitalist thinkers, who all pushed that strong government oversight was a REQUIRED part of Capitalism to keep it healthy and in balance.
the_gastropod 10mo ago
Which countries on the planet do you think are the least corrupt? What does their system of government look like?

websiteapi 10mo ago

Isn’t the cause that people just happened to elect someone who doesn’t care and is corrupt? Are you implying money decided the election? How do you reconcile this with the fact that trump was outspent?

ethbr1 10mo ago
"Outspent" is a nebulous concept, post-Citizens United.