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> The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy sim

> The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood Seems a little too speculatively worded, IMO.

flir 10mo ago
If it was true, couldn't you get the same effect by taking a biopsy, fragmenting the cells, and injecting them back in? Like a vaccination, in fact. Somebody must have studied that approach already.
- cowsandmilk 10mo ago
  Major damage tends to cause a much larger immune response than a vaccination. That said, they do have therapeutic cancer vaccines that present proteins from cancer (sometimes patient-specific) with adjuvants to help stimulate the immune response.
- londons_explore 10mo ago
  I assume the immune system probably already reacts to this in a specific way. For example, a major bruise has a lot of broken up cells, but doesn't warrant a big immune response.
- klipt 10mo ago
  Cancer immunotherapy is a whole field of research and treatment, yes.
- rincebrain 10mo ago
  There were reports that if you inject the goo from melting the tumor into another mouse, that mouse became much more resistant to that class of tumor[1], so... [1] - https://news.engin.umich.edu/2023/10/these-bubbles-kill-cancer/ https://news.engin.umich.edu/2023/10/these-bubbles-kill-canc...
- f6v 10mo ago
  First issue is that tumors don't necessarily have to be highly immunogenic, e.g. there're tumors that don't present many neoantigens on the surface. This means immune cells can't easily recognize them. Second issue is that tumor microenvironment evolves to be immunosuppressive. There're many different signals that regulate immune cells activation and simply having antigen-specific cells isn't enough. But as someone said in a sister thread, what you're describing is a basis for multiple clinical trials that combine antigen release with immune activation.
- amelius 10mo ago
  Exactly my thought.
underlipton 10mo ago
Interested layman here: IIUC, immunotherapy is currently the holy grail for difficult-to-treat cancers like pancreatic. There are designer mRNA vaccines available that have ridiculous efficacy, but they must be tailored to each individual and so are extremely expensive (and are currently undergoing trials). mRNA COVID vaccines have been shown in some studies to increase the lifespan of pancreatic cancer patients. So, it's not hard for me to imagine that a treatment that gives the immune system a crack at learning to identify and destroy pancreatic cancer cells will boost survivability. Part of the freak-out about the Trump admin's attacking of scientific research (including, especially, of mRNA research) earlier in the year is that it threatened these trials.
softjobs 10mo ago
It's called the abscopal effect; see e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8537037/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8537037/
- f6v 10mo ago
  Yes, we were doing a clinical trial where the primary tumor was irradiated which causes antigen release. The patients were given immune checkpoint inhibitors at the same time to activate immune cells. It's promising but tricky.

flir 10mo ago

If it was true, couldn't you get the same effect by taking a biopsy, fragmenting the cells, and injecting them back in? Like a vaccination, in fact. Somebody must have studied that approach already.

cowsandmilk 10mo ago
Major damage tends to cause a much larger immune response than a vaccination. That said, they do have therapeutic cancer vaccines that present proteins from cancer (sometimes patient-specific) with adjuvants to help stimulate the immune response.
londons_explore 10mo ago
I assume the immune system probably already reacts to this in a specific way. For example, a major bruise has a lot of broken up cells, but doesn't warrant a big immune response.
klipt 10mo ago
Cancer immunotherapy is a whole field of research and treatment, yes.
rincebrain 10mo ago
There were reports that if you inject the goo from melting the tumor into another mouse, that mouse became much more resistant to that class of tumor[1], so... [1] - https://news.engin.umich.edu/2023/10/these-bubbles-kill-cancer/ https://news.engin.umich.edu/2023/10/these-bubbles-kill-canc...
f6v 10mo ago
First issue is that tumors don't necessarily have to be highly immunogenic, e.g. there're tumors that don't present many neoantigens on the surface. This means immune cells can't easily recognize them. Second issue is that tumor microenvironment evolves to be immunosuppressive. There're many different signals that regulate immune cells activation and simply having antigen-specific cells isn't enough. But as someone said in a sister thread, what you're describing is a basis for multiple clinical trials that combine antigen release with immune activation.
amelius 10mo ago
Exactly my thought.

underlipton 10mo ago

Interested layman here: IIUC, immunotherapy is currently the holy grail for difficult-to-treat cancers like pancreatic. There are designer mRNA vaccines available that have ridiculous efficacy, but they must be tailored to each individual and so are extremely expensive (and are currently undergoing trials). mRNA COVID vaccines have been shown in some studies to increase the lifespan of pancreatic cancer patients. So, it's not hard for me to imagine that a treatment that gives the immune system a crack at learning to identify and destroy pancreatic cancer cells will boost survivability. Part of the freak-out about the Trump admin's attacking of scientific research (including, especially, of mRNA research) earlier in the year is that it threatened these trials.

softjobs 10mo ago

It's called the abscopal effect; see e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8537037/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8537037/

f6v 10mo ago
Yes, we were doing a clinical trial where the primary tumor was irradiated which causes antigen release. The patients were given immune checkpoint inhibitors at the same time to activate immune cells. It's promising but tricky.