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Well, I wish you the best with this - but I really don't understand the target market. The obvious competitor here is Tailscale. But let's say, reasons, and T

Well, I wish you the best with this - but I really don't understand the target market. The obvious competitor here is Tailscale. But let's say, reasons, and Tailscale isn't an option. Then you go down the path... TwinGate, Teleport, Netbird, Pomerium, Netmaker, ZeroTier, etc... Even the initial pricing and free tier are you're up against are going to mostly be a deal breaker compared to what's out there. Trusting a VPN provider is a lot. If you're running the control plane - why should I trust Netrinos?

atmosx 10mo ago
Isn’t that true for any new service out there? What’s the market for a search engine? And yet kagi.com is a thing.
- dewey 10mo ago
  That's a very weird comparison...as the market for a search engine is basically every internet user. A networking overlay for technical users is a much smaller market.
  - atmosx 10mo ago
    You mean that going against Google is easier than going against a small company like Tailscale? I doubt it.
j45 10mo ago
Kind of confusing to expect zero competition for a valid opportunity, then you're a category founder with an uphill battle to educate the customer for free, fail, and let the next co swoop in.
- windexh8er 10mo ago
  I never said there shouldn't be competition. What I implied is that Netrinos looks to be deficient in features and also has no market trust. My question was sincere: why should I trust them? This is a VPN.
1vuio0pswjnm7 10mo ago
"Well, I wish you the best with this - but I really don't understand the target market." "After years of SSH tunnels, IPsec headaches, and the ssh log horror movie, I wanted something simpler: install, sign in, get work done." "Target market" could be the author There's no good reason to discourage people from writing overlays, unless one is doing so for commercial (i.e., anti-competitive) reasons A more interesting question might be, "In your opinion, what is unsatisfactory about XYZ that does essentially the same thing" For example, one might be a Layer 2 overlay whilst the other is Layer 3 Maybe we'll never have web browser diversity (or meaningful competition) as the web browser has become an instrument of surveillance and advertising controlled by "Big Tech", but overlay diversity (and competition) is still a possibility If everyone thought IPsec and OpenVPN was "good enough" then Wireguard and Tailscale would not exist I still use an unpopular non-commercial L2 overlay from before Wireguard existed that is smaller and faster than anything else I have ever seen IMHO, the more overlays that exist, the better
- windexh8er 10mo ago
  > There's no good reason to discourage people from writing overlays, unless one is doing so for commercial (i.e., anti-competitive) reasons Where did I discourage them? I have no vested interest in any competition. And what I said can be publicly validated: their pricing isn't exactly competitive. > "After years of SSH tunnels, IPsec headaches, and the ssh log horror movie, I wanted something simpler: install, sign in, get work done." OK, again - they all solve for this. What's different? > For example, one might be a Layer 2 overlay whilst the other is Layer 3 OK, I've been doing VPNs a long time. What does this have to do with anything? > If everyone thought IPsec and OpenVPN was "good enough" then Wireguard and Tailscale would not exist OK. Thanks? This isn't a protocol discussion. This is a product discussion built on existing protocols. Netrinos has brought zero new to the plate comparatively at the underlying level. > I still use an unpopular non-commercial L2 overlay from before Wireguard existed that is smaller and faster than anything else I have ever seen A lot of tools like that exist. If it's "unpopular" there's, generally, a reason why. It could be: niche use case, it could be: doesn't solve a majority of people's problem. But since this is such a super secret L2 overlay I guess we'll never know. > IMHO, the more overlays that exist, the better This isn't an overlay. This is a VPN as a service - and my question was intentional: why should I even trust Netrinos. This is a VPN.
drcongo 10mo ago
I have been down that path and found Twingate, Netbird, Netmaker and Zerotier lacking in one way or another, not tried those other two yet though.
- pcarroll 10mo ago
  Could you please elaborate on what you found lacking? Always looking to improve.
wkat4242 10mo ago
Yeah not owning the control plane is why I don't use tailscale. I might use headscale at some point but for now I'm covered anyway :) and I don't like my control plane exposed to the internet even if it's self hosted. So I went for something else.

atmosx 10mo ago

Isn’t that true for any new service out there? What’s the market for a search engine? And yet kagi.com is a thing.

dewey 10mo ago
That's a very weird comparison...as the market for a search engine is basically every internet user. A networking overlay for technical users is a much smaller market.
- atmosx 10mo ago
  You mean that going against Google is easier than going against a small company like Tailscale? I doubt it.

j45 10mo ago

Kind of confusing to expect zero competition for a valid opportunity, then you're a category founder with an uphill battle to educate the customer for free, fail, and let the next co swoop in.

windexh8er 10mo ago
I never said there shouldn't be competition. What I implied is that Netrinos looks to be deficient in features and also has no market trust. My question was sincere: why should I trust them? This is a VPN.

1vuio0pswjnm7 10mo ago

"Well, I wish you the best with this - but I really don't understand the target market." "After years of SSH tunnels, IPsec headaches, and the ssh log horror movie, I wanted something simpler: install, sign in, get work done." "Target market" could be the author There's no good reason to discourage people from writing overlays, unless one is doing so for commercial (i.e., anti-competitive) reasons A more interesting question might be, "In your opinion, what is unsatisfactory about XYZ that does essentially the same thing" For example, one might be a Layer 2 overlay whilst the other is Layer 3 Maybe we'll never have web browser diversity (or meaningful competition) as the web browser has become an instrument of surveillance and advertising controlled by "Big Tech", but overlay diversity (and competition) is still a possibility If everyone thought IPsec and OpenVPN was "good enough" then Wireguard and Tailscale would not exist I still use an unpopular non-commercial L2 overlay from before Wireguard existed that is smaller and faster than anything else I have ever seen IMHO, the more overlays that exist, the better

windexh8er 10mo ago
> There's no good reason to discourage people from writing overlays, unless one is doing so for commercial (i.e., anti-competitive) reasons Where did I discourage them? I have no vested interest in any competition. And what I said can be publicly validated: their pricing isn't exactly competitive. > "After years of SSH tunnels, IPsec headaches, and the ssh log horror movie, I wanted something simpler: install, sign in, get work done." OK, again - they all solve for this. What's different? > For example, one might be a Layer 2 overlay whilst the other is Layer 3 OK, I've been doing VPNs a long time. What does this have to do with anything? > If everyone thought IPsec and OpenVPN was "good enough" then Wireguard and Tailscale would not exist OK. Thanks? This isn't a protocol discussion. This is a product discussion built on existing protocols. Netrinos has brought zero new to the plate comparatively at the underlying level. > I still use an unpopular non-commercial L2 overlay from before Wireguard existed that is smaller and faster than anything else I have ever seen A lot of tools like that exist. If it's "unpopular" there's, generally, a reason why. It could be: niche use case, it could be: doesn't solve a majority of people's problem. But since this is such a super secret L2 overlay I guess we'll never know. > IMHO, the more overlays that exist, the better This isn't an overlay. This is a VPN as a service - and my question was intentional: why should I even trust Netrinos. This is a VPN.

drcongo 10mo ago

I have been down that path and found Twingate, Netbird, Netmaker and Zerotier lacking in one way or another, not tried those other two yet though.

pcarroll 10mo ago
Could you please elaborate on what you found lacking? Always looking to improve.

wkat4242 10mo ago

Yeah not owning the control plane is why I don't use tailscale. I might use headscale at some point but for now I'm covered anyway :) and I don't like my control plane exposed to the internet even if it's self hosted. So I went for something else.