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Please note that depression != burn-out. If you really can't get out of bed on a Monday morning, can't face the day, or muster any enthusiasm for anything, then

Please note that depression != burn-out. If you really can't get out of bed on a Monday morning, can't face the day, or muster any enthusiasm for anything, then you might not need a purpose, you might need medical assistance. Be kind to yourselves, people.

thanedar 10mo ago
For sure! I've written a lot about depression too! But I do think a lot of what people otherwise blame on burnout or depression is really this existential hunger to make more positive impact. Finding that highest purpose can change lives!
- marcus_holmes 10mo ago
  My depression was due to childhood trauma. No amount of purpose would have changed that. I had to deal with my demons before I could move into the kind of positive space where purpose made any kind of difference. edit: but yes, now that I have done that work, purpose is good, and what keeps me positive and away from the black dog.
anyfoo 10mo ago
I don’t know. Doctors nowadays (especially in the US, it seems to be less prevalent elsewhere) seem very quick at prescribing medication. And while I don’t doubt that there are serious physiological conditions that warrant, even necessitate, medicating, my impression is that the first response to “depression” in general shouldn’t be medication. I’ve been depressed in the past, in my 20s even severely. Clinically, you could say. But in the end, every one of those depressive episodes were because something was not right in my life. Whether I acknowledged it or not, whether I even realized that there was a problem, once I figured the issues out and took the sometimes very painful and exhausting steps to sort them out, the depression faded away. Over time, I’ve become better at introspection to figure out what’s really bugging me, and also in recognizing a budding early depression as warning signs.
- habinero 10mo ago
  Mm. I'm glad for you that you can just think about your problems harder and get better, but that's not the reality of it for most people with depression. Meds don't magically make you happy and they don't magically get you out of fixing the problems in your life. They make it easier and therefore possible to do so. I'd describe it as the crane that lifts up the heavy weight enough for you to shuffle out. If you can just think harder about your problems, by all means, do that. But there's zero virtue to rawdogging it when help is available, especially as this can easily lead to an isolation spiral and become deadly.
  - kovek 10mo ago
    Yes, I believe thinking can be hampered by depression...
- Retric 10mo ago
  There’s little reason to avoid prescribing medication alongside other approaches. It’s not that meds are the only option or they should be reserved for the most severe cases, it’s people’s reactions are different and there’s no way to tell without trying them. For some people they really do work wonders and you simply don’t know ahead of time. Not everyone has a support structure they can count on as they fall apart. So some people just need help to get through a rough period even if a solution isn’t long term viable. When a spouse dies being able to function for the next few months can mean keeping the roof over someone’s head.
  - shkkmo 10mo ago
    > There’s little reason to avoid prescribing medication alongside other approaches. There absolutely are downsides and risks. There is a reason the SSRIs carry a "blackbox" warning for youths due to increased suicide risks. There's a reason they should only be used under supervision of a doctor and need to be tapered off of. That is not to say they aren't useful and necessary for some/many people but they aren't and shouldn't be a catch-all treatment.
nradov 10mo ago
Be unkind to yourselves, people. I find the best way to prevent depression and burn-out is to be brutally, ruthlessly frank with myself. There's nothing positive in accepting weakness and failure. I always feel better when I hold myself to the highest standards and don't make excuses. Of course, I don't always manage to fully do that but it's something to aspire to.
- marcus_holmes 10mo ago
  Please don't do this to yourself. Please go and get help. Brains really don't work this way, and you are damaging yourself.
  - nradov 10mo ago
    Nah, I'm good. You have no clue how brains actually work.
    - tock 10mo ago
      How do brains actually work?
  - koakuma-chan 10mo ago
    If you're sad just don't be sad. Easy peasy just like that.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 10mo ago
  What's the analog of rhabdomyolysis for the mind? You're on a path to get it, bud. Not a personal attack, just my and a whole bunch of other people's experiences.
  - RamblingCTO 10mo ago
    Burnout, anxiety disorders, panic attacks. One of them.
  - nradov 10mo ago
dyauspitr 10mo ago
Medical assistance is not going to help when the thing that is making you depressed is the non negotiable 9-5 you have to do 5 days a week. You’re not in the right field you say? Then you’ll be depressed from the poverty that comes from abysmal wages and the complete lack of job security.
- nradov 10mo ago
  Unless you're in prison, everything is negotiable. But some people build a private prison in their own minds.
  - canyp 10mo ago
    Ah, yes, low wages and precarity are just mental imagery people have constructed in their minds. If only those fools stopped lying to themselves! /s
    - brailsafe 10mo ago
      A personal prison can mean many things, and if low wages automatically mean precarity, then that's a type of stress that would be worthwhile to try and create a lesser draw on, imo. For me, I'm always framing whatever I currently earn as "right now". Right now I'm doing ok, but it's fairly likely it won't last longer than 2 years, because it never has, and I have no reason to think it will this time. That means that even if a bank were to give me a long term loan, I'd be stupid to commit to anything but the most manageable terms, which means I'd have to consider what I'd be able to make in a part-time laborer position when layoffs come around or something. If I can theoretically make myself liable for a 3.5k a month tiny condo mortgage, even if it's less than half my take home, I'd be uncomfortable doing so unless it was half that amount. Therefore, either a miracle needs to happen on the career side or the housing market needs to finally crash before my partner and I move out of this basement, no kids, used car etc.. and that's fine for now. If I lose a job, I need to have at least a year if not more of liquid or close to liquid assets available to cover living expenses, and for that to be possible, I need to have relatively minimal fixed liabilities
randyrand 10mo ago
And the money to pay for it. So better get to work.
Trasmatta 10mo ago
I don't think it's quite that binary. Depression can cause burn out and burn out can cause depression. They're inextricably linked.
- marcus_holmes 10mo ago
  agree completely. But they are different things, and need different treatment.
BikiniPrince 10mo ago
Burn out is the second or third year of non-stop fires and you are the one to solve all of the problems. Meanwhile the company is busy creating more fires because they haven’t finished burning that sweet sweet engineer candle.
anbotero 10mo ago
My situation is: I've visited doctors and they encourage me to try new things, "to keep coming out" of my comfort zone, but I can't seem to really feel excitement (passion, rather) anymore. The closest thing is my girlfriend. I don't complain about mornings, about working, about any activity: I dig most of them, I really like some, but I just can't seem to feel alignment with this "purpose" thing. In my mind, my purpose is to live with health, enjoy life. For that I do the usual: travel, meet new people, practice a different sport or physical activity, hike, dive, go out to restaurants, play video games, watch films, go to theater, cook, draw, paint figurines, I help people (I'm no volunteer, though). I'm only missing woodworking because I live in an apartment and I can't fit any of that here, haha. Am I cooked? Do I have depression and psychologists can't seem to adequately name it? Or can I simply go on with my life like this without feeling weird that every one else has/perceives all these issues that I don't?
- BobbyTables2 10mo ago
  I’m largely similar, except don’t even feel anything for spouse anymore either. Even nice vacations aren’t enjoyable the way they used to be. All started at the beginning of the pandemic (long before getting COVID). Have had poor luck getting doctors to diagnose and treat actual problems, so haven’t tried for this. Medically quite healthy by all measures. What confuses me is I see people 10-20 years older with passions for doing things. They seem to have a zest for life that I cannot comprehend.
  - marcus_holmes 10mo ago
    I'd encourage both of you to go and try talking to a therapist, based on my experiences. You absolutely can start by saying "I don't seem to have the joy of life that others have" and see where that leads you. It might not help, but it also might.
RamblingCTO 10mo ago
And burn out isn't "I hate my job and don't enjoy it more". It's fatigue so hard that you feel like you haven't slept after waking up. I hate that burnout is thrown around so easily. It's something that should be moved to therapy and a long time off, not "switch jobs". If that fixes your burnout, it's early stages or not burnout. I had burnout this year and was too dumbfounded in the supermarket to buy what I always buy or drive a car. I didn't have any mental capacity anymore. Like an IQ of 20 and the physical energy of a 100 year old.

thanedar 10mo ago

For sure! I've written a lot about depression too! But I do think a lot of what people otherwise blame on burnout or depression is really this existential hunger to make more positive impact. Finding that highest purpose can change lives!

marcus_holmes 10mo ago
My depression was due to childhood trauma. No amount of purpose would have changed that. I had to deal with my demons before I could move into the kind of positive space where purpose made any kind of difference. edit: but yes, now that I have done that work, purpose is good, and what keeps me positive and away from the black dog.

anyfoo 10mo ago

I don’t know. Doctors nowadays (especially in the US, it seems to be less prevalent elsewhere) seem very quick at prescribing medication. And while I don’t doubt that there are serious physiological conditions that warrant, even necessitate, medicating, my impression is that the first response to “depression” in general shouldn’t be medication. I’ve been depressed in the past, in my 20s even severely. Clinically, you could say. But in the end, every one of those depressive episodes were because something was not right in my life. Whether I acknowledged it or not, whether I even realized that there was a problem, once I figured the issues out and took the sometimes very painful and exhausting steps to sort them out, the depression faded away. Over time, I’ve become better at introspection to figure out what’s really bugging me, and also in recognizing a budding early depression as warning signs.

habinero 10mo ago
Mm. I'm glad for you that you can just think about your problems harder and get better, but that's not the reality of it for most people with depression. Meds don't magically make you happy and they don't magically get you out of fixing the problems in your life. They make it easier and therefore possible to do so. I'd describe it as the crane that lifts up the heavy weight enough for you to shuffle out. If you can just think harder about your problems, by all means, do that. But there's zero virtue to rawdogging it when help is available, especially as this can easily lead to an isolation spiral and become deadly.
- kovek 10mo ago
  Yes, I believe thinking can be hampered by depression...
Retric 10mo ago
There’s little reason to avoid prescribing medication alongside other approaches. It’s not that meds are the only option or they should be reserved for the most severe cases, it’s people’s reactions are different and there’s no way to tell without trying them. For some people they really do work wonders and you simply don’t know ahead of time. Not everyone has a support structure they can count on as they fall apart. So some people just need help to get through a rough period even if a solution isn’t long term viable. When a spouse dies being able to function for the next few months can mean keeping the roof over someone’s head.
- shkkmo 10mo ago
  > There’s little reason to avoid prescribing medication alongside other approaches. There absolutely are downsides and risks. There is a reason the SSRIs carry a "blackbox" warning for youths due to increased suicide risks. There's a reason they should only be used under supervision of a doctor and need to be tapered off of. That is not to say they aren't useful and necessary for some/many people but they aren't and shouldn't be a catch-all treatment.

nradov 10mo ago

Be unkind to yourselves, people. I find the best way to prevent depression and burn-out is to be brutally, ruthlessly frank with myself. There's nothing positive in accepting weakness and failure. I always feel better when I hold myself to the highest standards and don't make excuses. Of course, I don't always manage to fully do that but it's something to aspire to.

marcus_holmes 10mo ago
Please don't do this to yourself. Please go and get help. Brains really don't work this way, and you are damaging yourself.
- nradov 10mo ago
  Nah, I'm good. You have no clue how brains actually work.
  - tock 10mo ago
    How do brains actually work?
- koakuma-chan 10mo ago
  If you're sad just don't be sad. Easy peasy just like that.
rTX5CMRXIfFG 10mo ago
What's the analog of rhabdomyolysis for the mind? You're on a path to get it, bud. Not a personal attack, just my and a whole bunch of other people's experiences.
- RamblingCTO 10mo ago
  Burnout, anxiety disorders, panic attacks. One of them.
- nradov 10mo ago

dyauspitr 10mo ago

Medical assistance is not going to help when the thing that is making you depressed is the non negotiable 9-5 you have to do 5 days a week. You’re not in the right field you say? Then you’ll be depressed from the poverty that comes from abysmal wages and the complete lack of job security.

nradov 10mo ago
Unless you're in prison, everything is negotiable. But some people build a private prison in their own minds.
- canyp 10mo ago
  Ah, yes, low wages and precarity are just mental imagery people have constructed in their minds. If only those fools stopped lying to themselves! /s
  - brailsafe 10mo ago
    A personal prison can mean many things, and if low wages automatically mean precarity, then that's a type of stress that would be worthwhile to try and create a lesser draw on, imo. For me, I'm always framing whatever I currently earn as "right now". Right now I'm doing ok, but it's fairly likely it won't last longer than 2 years, because it never has, and I have no reason to think it will this time. That means that even if a bank were to give me a long term loan, I'd be stupid to commit to anything but the most manageable terms, which means I'd have to consider what I'd be able to make in a part-time laborer position when layoffs come around or something. If I can theoretically make myself liable for a 3.5k a month tiny condo mortgage, even if it's less than half my take home, I'd be uncomfortable doing so unless it was half that amount. Therefore, either a miracle needs to happen on the career side or the housing market needs to finally crash before my partner and I move out of this basement, no kids, used car etc.. and that's fine for now. If I lose a job, I need to have at least a year if not more of liquid or close to liquid assets available to cover living expenses, and for that to be possible, I need to have relatively minimal fixed liabilities

randyrand 10mo ago

And the money to pay for it. So better get to work.

Trasmatta 10mo ago

I don't think it's quite that binary. Depression can cause burn out and burn out can cause depression. They're inextricably linked.

marcus_holmes 10mo ago
agree completely. But they are different things, and need different treatment.

BikiniPrince 10mo ago

Burn out is the second or third year of non-stop fires and you are the one to solve all of the problems. Meanwhile the company is busy creating more fires because they haven’t finished burning that sweet sweet engineer candle.

anbotero 10mo ago

My situation is: I've visited doctors and they encourage me to try new things, "to keep coming out" of my comfort zone, but I can't seem to really feel excitement (passion, rather) anymore. The closest thing is my girlfriend. I don't complain about mornings, about working, about any activity: I dig most of them, I really like some, but I just can't seem to feel alignment with this "purpose" thing. In my mind, my purpose is to live with health, enjoy life. For that I do the usual: travel, meet new people, practice a different sport or physical activity, hike, dive, go out to restaurants, play video games, watch films, go to theater, cook, draw, paint figurines, I help people (I'm no volunteer, though). I'm only missing woodworking because I live in an apartment and I can't fit any of that here, haha. Am I cooked? Do I have depression and psychologists can't seem to adequately name it? Or can I simply go on with my life like this without feeling weird that every one else has/perceives all these issues that I don't?

BobbyTables2 10mo ago
I’m largely similar, except don’t even feel anything for spouse anymore either. Even nice vacations aren’t enjoyable the way they used to be. All started at the beginning of the pandemic (long before getting COVID). Have had poor luck getting doctors to diagnose and treat actual problems, so haven’t tried for this. Medically quite healthy by all measures. What confuses me is I see people 10-20 years older with passions for doing things. They seem to have a zest for life that I cannot comprehend.
- marcus_holmes 10mo ago
  I'd encourage both of you to go and try talking to a therapist, based on my experiences. You absolutely can start by saying "I don't seem to have the joy of life that others have" and see where that leads you. It might not help, but it also might.

RamblingCTO 10mo ago

And burn out isn't "I hate my job and don't enjoy it more". It's fatigue so hard that you feel like you haven't slept after waking up. I hate that burnout is thrown around so easily. It's something that should be moved to therapy and a long time off, not "switch jobs". If that fixes your burnout, it's early stages or not burnout. I had burnout this year and was too dumbfounded in the supermarket to buy what I always buy or drive a car. I didn't have any mental capacity anymore. Like an IQ of 20 and the physical energy of a 100 year old.