5 ms·

Other medications become lifelong medications but without this level of scrutiny. I am 100% in favor of finding a more permanent treatment, but switching blood

by jmward01 10mo ago

Other medications become lifelong medications but without this level of scrutiny. I am 100% in favor of finding a more permanent treatment, but switching blood pressure meds, and cholesterol meds, and other daily meds for a single once a week med is a massive improvement, especially since the all source mortality data keeps rolling in showing the efficacy here is orders of magnitude better than all the other medications out there. A constant issue here is that we keep calling this a 'weight loss drug' and society views being fat as a moral failing ant that you 'just don't have the will power' to overcome. We need to stop. If this is a lifelong drug it is worth it compared to the relatively ineffective, and just as lifelong, alternatives out there.

3rodents 10mo ago
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. I’m all for life-long drugs that help with weight loss, I don’t view it as a moral failing. That said, it is easy to see why so many people are concerned about these drugs: people taking them can look terrible (“ozempic face”). Gaunt, sick, hollowed out, look at people like Sharon Osbourne, that’s the public face of these drugs. And so when people are committing to life-long use of these drugs, it is being viewed with the very visible side effects in mind, and that is concerning to a lot of people after these drugs seemingly appeared overnight.
- hamandcheese 10mo ago
  "Ozempic face" is actually just "unhealthy rapid weight loss face". Ozempic makes it easier to starve yourself, but that isn't how it's supposed to be used.
  - yellow_postit 10mo ago
    Many of the fly by night digital proscribes just jack the dosage to show rapid gains. Coupled with people lying on BMI to get a script is a bad combination and why it’s so obvious.
  - manmal 10mo ago
    It’s also accelerated muscle loss, even heart tissue. I‘m not saying it’s not worth it, but this should be kept on the radar for sure.
    - premiumLootBox 10mo ago
      [dead]
  - tartoran 10mo ago
    Taking Ozempic also drops a lot of muscular mass and that ozempic face look totally makes sense. There's no free lunch or wonder drug. While it's effective at weight loss it has a lot of unwanted side effects. And when stopping the drug the weight gain comes back so not sure if it's worth it.
    - array_key_first 10mo ago
      > Taking Ozempic also drops a lot of muscular mass and that ozempic face look totally makes sense. No, it doesn't, weight loss does this. I've lost weight before via starving and even as a man, all my muscle went poof. If you look at someone like Ariana Grande, who clearly is anorexic, here arms are like sticks and here face looks tautly stretched over her bones. This is just what happens when you starve your body of nutrients. Your muscles are some of the first to go because they're the least vital. Your organs and brain are much, much more important. Your body will have no issue taking your muscle away to give it to your organs. Regardless of ozempic.
AaronAPU 10mo ago
But it is factually true that it’s a matter of willpower, no amount of reframing it is going to change that. It’s not like others like myself, currently on a cut cycle, don’t experience hunger. The idea that we are just “lucky” ignores all the willpower and discipline we fight through to do it ourselves. I’ve eaten about 800 calories today and it is 4pm. Just finished 90 minutes on the indoor bike. My stomach feels hungry. I experience that and just sit with it. That is the difference.
- afavour 10mo ago
  How can you say that with any certainty, though? How do you know that hunger hits you in the exact same way it does another person? That overcoming it requires the exact same amount of willpower in all people?
  - AaronAPU 10mo ago
    My hunger feels 8 trillion times worse than an obese person’s. Since I am making the claim, everyone else has to affirm it now.
    - afavour 10mo ago
      But you’re disproving your own point. Other people’s experiences aren’t knowable so you can’t say it’s just a willpower issue.
- manmal 10mo ago
  Congrats, your metabolism (FAO, gluconeogenesis, insulin sensitivity, …) works well. Don’t assume that’s the case for everyone, because it’s well researched that this is highly individual.
  - AaronAPU 10mo ago
    You know nothing about my metabolism.
paulpauper 10mo ago
A constant issue here is that we keep calling this a 'weight loss drug' and society views being fat as a moral failing ant that you 'just don't have the will power' to overcome. We need to stop. If this is a lifelong drug it is worth it compared to the relatively ineffective, and just as lifelong, alternatives out there. I have noticed much less moralizing over the issue now compared to 2-3 years ago. I think more people realize these drug are safe and effective and not 'taking the easy way out', but rather a treatment for a medical problem than just blaming laziness or gluttony.
- thefz 10mo ago
  The article explains they they are not safe nor effective
  - sergiosgc 10mo ago
    No. The article explains they do not cure the underlying issue, whatever it is. We have many such drugs, widely accepted as safe and effective.
    - thefz 10mo ago
      So they are not effective.
      - array_key_first 10mo ago
        Are you not listening or...? I took chemotherapy for cancer treatment, and it was very effective. Chemo is not a root-cause solution. It's a shotgun solution, a hammer even. It just kills cells that look like cancer. It doesn't stop cells from being cancerous, or turn cancerous cells back into normal cells. It's also carcinogenic, meaning it actually causes cancer. I am now much more likely than the general population to develop another cancer. But it also saved my life. We do not measure effectiveness of medicine by if you think it's morally just. Nobody cares what you think, actually. We measure it in the real world, by if it works.
pupppet 10mo ago
But what if these weight loss drugs are making you hungrier than you ever would have been had you not started in the first place?
nradov 10mo ago
I doubt that willpower or lack thereof is a significant factor. It's more a matter of habits and discipline. Willpower can allow you to resist temptation for a few hours but it's not sustainable. I know several people who were formerly obese and have achieved sustained weight loss without drugs or surgery. The common factor seems to be that they "hit rock bottom", sort of like a drug addict, and decided to make permanent lifestyle changes in order to survive and stop letting down those who depended upon them. These lifestyle changes are often pretty drastic, and involve more than just eating less and exercising more. If people want to take GLP-1 drugs and understand the risks then I have no problem with that and don't see it as a moral failing. But they might want to evaluate whether this is just masking the symptoms of some deeper mental health condition.
xorcist 10mo ago
> society views being fat as a moral failing This is just as weak as a counter argument. If every argument that concludes that lifestyle changes are necessary, in most situations and for most patients, are just written off as some sort of moral high ground and not necessarily something to take seriously, then what do we have left? Is there seriously no functional difference between healing a broken bone and getting someone to stop smoking? The only problem is just that we haven't found the right medication for the latter? Evidence of necessary lifestyle changes as part of some moral crusade? The science is pretty clear on the subject and it is up there as one of the most well studied in medicine. Yes, anyone can stop smoking and anyone can gain or loose weight. Yes, lifestyle changes are the most imporant factor in a treatment being successful.
- array_key_first 10mo ago
  There's a common misunderstanding that medication and lifestyle changes are two separate things, and we should do one or the other, with medication being the "easy way" out. No. The way GLP-1 drugs work is by lifestyle changes. People on GLP-1 agonists will, on average, eat smaller portions, are more inclined to eat healthier food, and will even exercise more. If you take GLP-1s and don't do the lifestyle changes, they don't work. So are these drugs useless? No. They make the lifestyle changes more attainable. In your smoking example, it's similar. We have cessation drugs, I know because I've used them. No, they don't magically make you stop smoking. But they do make it easier. We need to rewrite how we view these drugs. They don't take away your power, your strength. No, they help you find it. You had the strength all along, but these are tools to help you exercise it.

3rodents 10mo ago

I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. I’m all for life-long drugs that help with weight loss, I don’t view it as a moral failing. That said, it is easy to see why so many people are concerned about these drugs: people taking them can look terrible (“ozempic face”). Gaunt, sick, hollowed out, look at people like Sharon Osbourne, that’s the public face of these drugs. And so when people are committing to life-long use of these drugs, it is being viewed with the very visible side effects in mind, and that is concerning to a lot of people after these drugs seemingly appeared overnight.

hamandcheese 10mo ago
"Ozempic face" is actually just "unhealthy rapid weight loss face". Ozempic makes it easier to starve yourself, but that isn't how it's supposed to be used.
- yellow_postit 10mo ago
  Many of the fly by night digital proscribes just jack the dosage to show rapid gains. Coupled with people lying on BMI to get a script is a bad combination and why it’s so obvious.
- manmal 10mo ago
  It’s also accelerated muscle loss, even heart tissue. I‘m not saying it’s not worth it, but this should be kept on the radar for sure.
  - premiumLootBox 10mo ago
    [dead]
- tartoran 10mo ago
  Taking Ozempic also drops a lot of muscular mass and that ozempic face look totally makes sense. There's no free lunch or wonder drug. While it's effective at weight loss it has a lot of unwanted side effects. And when stopping the drug the weight gain comes back so not sure if it's worth it.
  - array_key_first 10mo ago
    > Taking Ozempic also drops a lot of muscular mass and that ozempic face look totally makes sense. No, it doesn't, weight loss does this. I've lost weight before via starving and even as a man, all my muscle went poof. If you look at someone like Ariana Grande, who clearly is anorexic, here arms are like sticks and here face looks tautly stretched over her bones. This is just what happens when you starve your body of nutrients. Your muscles are some of the first to go because they're the least vital. Your organs and brain are much, much more important. Your body will have no issue taking your muscle away to give it to your organs. Regardless of ozempic.

AaronAPU 10mo ago

But it is factually true that it’s a matter of willpower, no amount of reframing it is going to change that. It’s not like others like myself, currently on a cut cycle, don’t experience hunger. The idea that we are just “lucky” ignores all the willpower and discipline we fight through to do it ourselves. I’ve eaten about 800 calories today and it is 4pm. Just finished 90 minutes on the indoor bike. My stomach feels hungry. I experience that and just sit with it. That is the difference.

afavour 10mo ago
How can you say that with any certainty, though? How do you know that hunger hits you in the exact same way it does another person? That overcoming it requires the exact same amount of willpower in all people?
- AaronAPU 10mo ago
  My hunger feels 8 trillion times worse than an obese person’s. Since I am making the claim, everyone else has to affirm it now.
  - afavour 10mo ago
    But you’re disproving your own point. Other people’s experiences aren’t knowable so you can’t say it’s just a willpower issue.
manmal 10mo ago
Congrats, your metabolism (FAO, gluconeogenesis, insulin sensitivity, …) works well. Don’t assume that’s the case for everyone, because it’s well researched that this is highly individual.
- AaronAPU 10mo ago
  You know nothing about my metabolism.

paulpauper 10mo ago

A constant issue here is that we keep calling this a 'weight loss drug' and society views being fat as a moral failing ant that you 'just don't have the will power' to overcome. We need to stop. If this is a lifelong drug it is worth it compared to the relatively ineffective, and just as lifelong, alternatives out there. I have noticed much less moralizing over the issue now compared to 2-3 years ago. I think more people realize these drug are safe and effective and not 'taking the easy way out', but rather a treatment for a medical problem than just blaming laziness or gluttony.

thefz 10mo ago
The article explains they they are not safe nor effective
- sergiosgc 10mo ago
  No. The article explains they do not cure the underlying issue, whatever it is. We have many such drugs, widely accepted as safe and effective.
  - thefz 10mo ago
    So they are not effective.
    - array_key_first 10mo ago
      Are you not listening or...? I took chemotherapy for cancer treatment, and it was very effective. Chemo is not a root-cause solution. It's a shotgun solution, a hammer even. It just kills cells that look like cancer. It doesn't stop cells from being cancerous, or turn cancerous cells back into normal cells. It's also carcinogenic, meaning it actually causes cancer. I am now much more likely than the general population to develop another cancer. But it also saved my life. We do not measure effectiveness of medicine by if you think it's morally just. Nobody cares what you think, actually. We measure it in the real world, by if it works.

pupppet 10mo ago

But what if these weight loss drugs are making you hungrier than you ever would have been had you not started in the first place?

nradov 10mo ago

I doubt that willpower or lack thereof is a significant factor. It's more a matter of habits and discipline. Willpower can allow you to resist temptation for a few hours but it's not sustainable. I know several people who were formerly obese and have achieved sustained weight loss without drugs or surgery. The common factor seems to be that they "hit rock bottom", sort of like a drug addict, and decided to make permanent lifestyle changes in order to survive and stop letting down those who depended upon them. These lifestyle changes are often pretty drastic, and involve more than just eating less and exercising more. If people want to take GLP-1 drugs and understand the risks then I have no problem with that and don't see it as a moral failing. But they might want to evaluate whether this is just masking the symptoms of some deeper mental health condition.

xorcist 10mo ago

> society views being fat as a moral failing This is just as weak as a counter argument. If every argument that concludes that lifestyle changes are necessary, in most situations and for most patients, are just written off as some sort of moral high ground and not necessarily something to take seriously, then what do we have left? Is there seriously no functional difference between healing a broken bone and getting someone to stop smoking? The only problem is just that we haven't found the right medication for the latter? Evidence of necessary lifestyle changes as part of some moral crusade? The science is pretty clear on the subject and it is up there as one of the most well studied in medicine. Yes, anyone can stop smoking and anyone can gain or loose weight. Yes, lifestyle changes are the most imporant factor in a treatment being successful.

array_key_first 10mo ago
There's a common misunderstanding that medication and lifestyle changes are two separate things, and we should do one or the other, with medication being the "easy way" out. No. The way GLP-1 drugs work is by lifestyle changes. People on GLP-1 agonists will, on average, eat smaller portions, are more inclined to eat healthier food, and will even exercise more. If you take GLP-1s and don't do the lifestyle changes, they don't work. So are these drugs useless? No. They make the lifestyle changes more attainable. In your smoking example, it's similar. We have cessation drugs, I know because I've used them. No, they don't magically make you stop smoking. But they do make it easier. We need to rewrite how we view these drugs. They don't take away your power, your strength. No, they help you find it. You had the strength all along, but these are tools to help you exercise it.