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The EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive for

The EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Except for the Germans.

andsoitis 11mo ago
> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Your framing is off, I'm afraid. Across Europe, most people see the EU as more good than bad, especially compared to the alternative of countries acting alone. At the same time, support is often cautious rather than enthusiastic.
- nephihaha 11mo ago
  Voter turn out is extremely low in certain central and eastern Europe for EU elections. I think it was down to under 20% in some places a few years ago. I had hoped that the UK would vote to remain and Europe would move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, but it's got worse especially since 2020. The EU is its own worst enemy.
  - andsoitis 11mo ago
    > move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, EU is authoritarian? Why do you think that?
    - nephihaha 11mo ago
      It is restricting freedom of expression, and increasing public surveillance.
      - jeltz 11mo ago
        The EU is what held back the surveillance in the UK. Post brexit they went all in on surveillance.
        nephihaha 11mo ago
        Both the UK and the EU are rolling in censorship, surveillance and digital ID.
        disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
        You've literally just contradicted your own post in this thread.
        nephihaha 11mo ago
        No, I haven't. Both the UK and EU are doing many of the same things. You can argue that the EU is bureaucratic without supporting bureaucracy within the UK. These are not contradictory positions.
        disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
        You claimed that the UK leaving was bad as they were more liberal, and then noted that they were also doing lots of anti privacy stuff. Seems a little contradictory to me.
      - deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
    - watwut 11mo ago
      It insists on things like "corruption is bad", "human rights are for everyone including gays" so naturally certain conservative groups find that authoritarian.
      - DaSHacka 11mo ago
        also things such as chat control and surveilling the entire populace, but I'm sure you must be right that the problem people have with it is that they say "corruption is bad"
        jeltz 11mo ago
        Chat control is a Swedish proposal that has consistently lost in the Parliament. We should of course keep fighting it but at least as a Swede I know things would have been much worse without the EU.
        rdm_blackhole 11mo ago
        > Chat control is Swedish proposal. It was pushed by Sweden but also by many other countries including France (which loves to give lessons of democracy to the world by the way and is very much at the forefront of human rights or so they say) and Hungary amongst others. > has consistently lost in the Parliament. It has consistently lost so far. Secondly the reason it has lost is because people like me took the time to actually reach out to any MEP who would take my call to tell them to oppose this law. If we had waited for the EU to react and put a stop to this madness, we would still be waiting. This law should never have been proposed in the first place anyway. The fact that it was proposed and debated is a shameful action in itself. > I know things would have been much worse without the EU. How can you know for sure? You can't. Since it originated from the EU commission, it stands to reason that without the EU commission it would not have happened. You believe that the EU is good because that is your belief. The European countries existed for 100s of years before the EU. There is no reason to think that they can't go back to this state in the future.
      - nephihaha 11mo ago
        Human rights are for everyone, not just people you agree with. If you bring in censorship, surveillance and smother protest for people you disagree with, you will find it getting used against you yourself at some point. Europe has imported this false binary from the USA, and it is not benefitting it either. The EU has its fair share of corruption, but it is is better at hiding it than developing countries. Its current president Ursula Von Der Leyen is a fraud who appears to have cheated at university, and only got to where she did due to wealth and aristocratic family connections.
    - tmnvix 11mo ago
      One definition of authoritarian is "enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom". It would seem to me that the recent spate of sanctioning individuals - e.g. for 'disseminating misinformation' without a legal definition of what that actually is would be an example of authoritarianism. A direct attack on freedom of speech and thought.
- carlosjobim 11mo ago
  I've never seen any pro-EU attitude in the European countries I've lived in. Except for among the political and media class. But those aren't representatives of the general population. But I haven't lived in central Europe, like Germany, Belgium, etc. Where the attitudes seem to be quite pro-EU. The original statement still stands. Europe is not the EU. The EU is not Europe.
saubeidl 11mo ago
That is more indicative of the company you keep than the actual reality on the ground. https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-strong-support-brussels.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-stron...
phatfish 11mo ago
Which Europeans have you "talked" to? Discord and twitter don't count. People moan about the EU like they moan about their own national government. Opinion polls on actually leaving the EU show a minority in favour. Most Europeans saw Brexit play out and realise sticking the finger up at your neighbours is not a winning strategy.
- carlosjobim 11mo ago
  I guess real life doesn't count either? Good that we can rely on HN and Reddit, where the pro-EU sentiment is strong. I just haven't seen that in real life, which is why I suggest maybe it might be particular to Germans and probably Belgians and Dutch.
  - disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
    Where have you lived in the EU? I think that the EU is mostly mediocre rather like our national governments.
- darubedarob 11mo ago
  Brexit was ironically mostly an anti immigration vote. It has thoroughly demolished the involved parties that the one thing promised has not come to pass.
Lapel2742 11mo ago
> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Maybe you should get out of your right-wing bubble. - EU approval among its citizens hits record high as security fears grow, poll shows (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-approval-among-its-citizens-hits-record-high-security-fears-grow-poll-shows-2025-03-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-approval-among-its-c...) - Nearly three quarters of EU citizens (74%) say that, taking everything into account, their country has benefited from being a member of the EU. (https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3378 https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3378)
- nephihaha 11mo ago
  The EU is busy clamping down on freedom of expression and forcing through Digital ID. It isn't some paradise. There are things I like about the EU, but it also has some things horribly wrong.
  - Lapel2742 11mo ago
    > It isn't some paradise. Compared to the USA it still is.
    - nephihaha 11mo ago
      The EU has better healthcare and welfare overall, but fewer individual rights in other areas. Less gun crime (although this depends on region). Poverty levels vary a lot across the EU. Americans take homeschooling for granted, for better or worse, but it is banned in some European countries like Germany. Also the USA allows groups such as the Amish their liberty, which would be extremely unlikely in much of the EU where state interference would either force them out or destroy them. The US has umpteen issues but is much better for freedom of expression frankly, although it is being steered away from that.
      - watwut 11mo ago
        Right now EU is not arresting own citizens for failure to provide ID card while america does that even when said people have id card. EU is not demanding 5 yeara of social media public from kids entering in. EU is not killing fisherman to feel manly. EU is overall more democratic and more free. The parts that sux Hungary and Slovakia dont sux because of EU, but despite it. It is ok for Germany to not have homeschooling.
ulfw 11mo ago
You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop generalising. You don't know what Europeans think at all "except for the Germans"
- carlosjobim 11mo ago
  I have an idea of what I'm talking about. I say that the EU is not Europe. Nor is Europe the EU. People in these conversations need to understand the difference, because it is significant. Norway, Great Britain, Iceland and Switzerland aren't in the EU.
  - disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
    All of those bar the UK are in the EEA though.
    - carlosjobim 11mo ago
      Yes, but those are only trade and border agreements, and don't give the EU influence on internal political matters. Compare similar trade agreements between other nations, such as between the United States and their neighbours.
      - disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
        > Yes, but those are only trade and border agreements Honestly goods and service regulations are probably the biggest infringement of sovereignty as it signs all of your companies up to arbitrary standards. That may be a good idea, but to pretend that it's somehow less important than other pooling of sovereignty seems strange to me.
pezezin 11mo ago
Spanish guy here: no, we don't hate the EU, quite the opposite. Please stop feeding on right-wing propaganda that wants to destroy us.
- carlosjobim 11mo ago
  Unfortunately you live in the wrong time and age. You'd like to report to your local commissar when somebody expresses opinions and ideas against the cherished government - "he's a right wing propagandist who seeks to destroy us!". But it's not the 20th century anymore, and all you can do is scream into the cyber void.
  - pezezin 11mo ago
    Dude please, my country endured 40 years of a fascist government, we know a few things about right wing propaganda...
    - carlosjobim 11mo ago
      Accusing anybody who doesn't love the government of "spreading propaganda" is not a sign of knowledge. It's a sign of an obsolete 20th century mindset and perspective on life. Next perhaps you're going to accuse me of "Staatsfeindlichkeit", which the German leadership was screaming in their denouncements, before the people tore down their walls. "Verunglimpfung des Staates" - "Insulting the State", this awful, awful crime, is something I'm going to continue doing however I fancy. Millions of people were killed for that right, so it's not something I'm ever giving up.
      - pezezin 11mo ago
        Not loving the government is OK. Heck, hating the government might also be OK. Insisting that we European citizens hate the EU when it is not true, and then doubling down with accusations of censorship when the whole thread points out your mistake, is downright stupid. But hey, if that makes you happy as some kind of freedom fighter, go for it.

The EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Except for the Germans.

andsoitis 11mo ago

> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Your framing is off, I'm afraid. Across Europe, most people see the EU as more good than bad, especially compared to the alternative of countries acting alone. At the same time, support is often cautious rather than enthusiastic.

nephihaha 11mo ago
Voter turn out is extremely low in certain central and eastern Europe for EU elections. I think it was down to under 20% in some places a few years ago. I had hoped that the UK would vote to remain and Europe would move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, but it's got worse especially since 2020. The EU is its own worst enemy.
- andsoitis 11mo ago
  > move away from a centralist, authoritarian model, EU is authoritarian? Why do you think that?
  - nephihaha 11mo ago
    It is restricting freedom of expression, and increasing public surveillance.
    - jeltz 11mo ago
      The EU is what held back the surveillance in the UK. Post brexit they went all in on surveillance.
      - nephihaha 11mo ago
        Both the UK and the EU are rolling in censorship, surveillance and digital ID.
        disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
        You've literally just contradicted your own post in this thread.
        nephihaha 11mo ago
        No, I haven't. Both the UK and EU are doing many of the same things. You can argue that the EU is bureaucratic without supporting bureaucracy within the UK. These are not contradictory positions.
        disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
        You claimed that the UK leaving was bad as they were more liberal, and then noted that they were also doing lots of anti privacy stuff. Seems a little contradictory to me.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
  - watwut 11mo ago
    It insists on things like "corruption is bad", "human rights are for everyone including gays" so naturally certain conservative groups find that authoritarian.
    - DaSHacka 11mo ago
      also things such as chat control and surveilling the entire populace, but I'm sure you must be right that the problem people have with it is that they say "corruption is bad"
      - jeltz 11mo ago
        Chat control is a Swedish proposal that has consistently lost in the Parliament. We should of course keep fighting it but at least as a Swede I know things would have been much worse without the EU.
        rdm_blackhole 11mo ago
        > Chat control is Swedish proposal. It was pushed by Sweden but also by many other countries including France (which loves to give lessons of democracy to the world by the way and is very much at the forefront of human rights or so they say) and Hungary amongst others. > has consistently lost in the Parliament. It has consistently lost so far. Secondly the reason it has lost is because people like me took the time to actually reach out to any MEP who would take my call to tell them to oppose this law. If we had waited for the EU to react and put a stop to this madness, we would still be waiting. This law should never have been proposed in the first place anyway. The fact that it was proposed and debated is a shameful action in itself. > I know things would have been much worse without the EU. How can you know for sure? You can't. Since it originated from the EU commission, it stands to reason that without the EU commission it would not have happened. You believe that the EU is good because that is your belief. The European countries existed for 100s of years before the EU. There is no reason to think that they can't go back to this state in the future.
    - nephihaha 11mo ago
      Human rights are for everyone, not just people you agree with. If you bring in censorship, surveillance and smother protest for people you disagree with, you will find it getting used against you yourself at some point. Europe has imported this false binary from the USA, and it is not benefitting it either. The EU has its fair share of corruption, but it is is better at hiding it than developing countries. Its current president Ursula Von Der Leyen is a fraud who appears to have cheated at university, and only got to where she did due to wealth and aristocratic family connections.
  - tmnvix 11mo ago
    One definition of authoritarian is "enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom". It would seem to me that the recent spate of sanctioning individuals - e.g. for 'disseminating misinformation' without a legal definition of what that actually is would be an example of authoritarianism. A direct attack on freedom of speech and thought.
carlosjobim 11mo ago
I've never seen any pro-EU attitude in the European countries I've lived in. Except for among the political and media class. But those aren't representatives of the general population. But I haven't lived in central Europe, like Germany, Belgium, etc. Where the attitudes seem to be quite pro-EU. The original statement still stands. Europe is not the EU. The EU is not Europe.

saubeidl 11mo ago

That is more indicative of the company you keep than the actual reality on the ground. https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-strong-support-brussels.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/657860/member-states-show-stron...

phatfish 11mo ago

Which Europeans have you "talked" to? Discord and twitter don't count. People moan about the EU like they moan about their own national government. Opinion polls on actually leaving the EU show a minority in favour. Most Europeans saw Brexit play out and realise sticking the finger up at your neighbours is not a winning strategy.

carlosjobim 11mo ago
I guess real life doesn't count either? Good that we can rely on HN and Reddit, where the pro-EU sentiment is strong. I just haven't seen that in real life, which is why I suggest maybe it might be particular to Germans and probably Belgians and Dutch.
- disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
  Where have you lived in the EU? I think that the EU is mostly mediocre rather like our national governments.
darubedarob 11mo ago
Brexit was ironically mostly an anti immigration vote. It has thoroughly demolished the involved parties that the one thing promised has not come to pass.

Lapel2742 11mo ago

> Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Maybe you should get out of your right-wing bubble. - EU approval among its citizens hits record high as security fears grow, poll shows (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-approval-among-its-citizens-hits-record-high-security-fears-grow-poll-shows-2025-03-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-approval-among-its-c...) - Nearly three quarters of EU citizens (74%) say that, taking everything into account, their country has benefited from being a member of the EU. (https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3378 https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3378)

nephihaha 11mo ago
The EU is busy clamping down on freedom of expression and forcing through Digital ID. It isn't some paradise. There are things I like about the EU, but it also has some things horribly wrong.
- Lapel2742 11mo ago
  > It isn't some paradise. Compared to the USA it still is.
  - nephihaha 11mo ago
    The EU has better healthcare and welfare overall, but fewer individual rights in other areas. Less gun crime (although this depends on region). Poverty levels vary a lot across the EU. Americans take homeschooling for granted, for better or worse, but it is banned in some European countries like Germany. Also the USA allows groups such as the Amish their liberty, which would be extremely unlikely in much of the EU where state interference would either force them out or destroy them. The US has umpteen issues but is much better for freedom of expression frankly, although it is being steered away from that.
    - watwut 11mo ago
      Right now EU is not arresting own citizens for failure to provide ID card while america does that even when said people have id card. EU is not demanding 5 yeara of social media public from kids entering in. EU is not killing fisherman to feel manly. EU is overall more democratic and more free. The parts that sux Hungary and Slovakia dont sux because of EU, but despite it. It is ok for Germany to not have homeschooling.

ulfw 11mo ago

You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop generalising. You don't know what Europeans think at all "except for the Germans"

carlosjobim 11mo ago
I have an idea of what I'm talking about. I say that the EU is not Europe. Nor is Europe the EU. People in these conversations need to understand the difference, because it is significant. Norway, Great Britain, Iceland and Switzerland aren't in the EU.
- disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
  All of those bar the UK are in the EEA though.
  - carlosjobim 11mo ago
    Yes, but those are only trade and border agreements, and don't give the EU influence on internal political matters. Compare similar trade agreements between other nations, such as between the United States and their neighbours.
    - disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
      > Yes, but those are only trade and border agreements Honestly goods and service regulations are probably the biggest infringement of sovereignty as it signs all of your companies up to arbitrary standards. That may be a good idea, but to pretend that it's somehow less important than other pooling of sovereignty seems strange to me.

pezezin 11mo ago

Spanish guy here: no, we don't hate the EU, quite the opposite. Please stop feeding on right-wing propaganda that wants to destroy us.

carlosjobim 11mo ago
Unfortunately you live in the wrong time and age. You'd like to report to your local commissar when somebody expresses opinions and ideas against the cherished government - "he's a right wing propagandist who seeks to destroy us!". But it's not the 20th century anymore, and all you can do is scream into the cyber void.
- pezezin 11mo ago
  Dude please, my country endured 40 years of a fascist government, we know a few things about right wing propaganda...
  - carlosjobim 11mo ago
    Accusing anybody who doesn't love the government of "spreading propaganda" is not a sign of knowledge. It's a sign of an obsolete 20th century mindset and perspective on life. Next perhaps you're going to accuse me of "Staatsfeindlichkeit", which the German leadership was screaming in their denouncements, before the people tore down their walls. "Verunglimpfung des Staates" - "Insulting the State", this awful, awful crime, is something I'm going to continue doing however I fancy. Millions of people were killed for that right, so it's not something I'm ever giving up.
    - pezezin 11mo ago
      Not loving the government is OK. Heck, hating the government might also be OK. Insisting that we European citizens hate the EU when it is not true, and then doubling down with accusations of censorship when the whole thread points out your mistake, is downright stupid. But hey, if that makes you happy as some kind of freedom fighter, go for it.