6 ms·

I was in Spain this past summer and it certainly seems they are experiencing tourist burnout. I saw anti tourist messages on banners hung on buildings, graffiti

I was in Spain this past summer and it certainly seems they are experiencing tourist burnout. I saw anti tourist messages on banners hung on buildings, graffiti, posters and stickers in Madrid and Barcelona. Some of it was a bit threatening but I had zero issues. The issue of airbnb is a sticky one. On one hand, being able to temporarily live in an apartment greatly enhances the immersiveness when your travel - you get to feel like a local and experience life in another place. Hotels suck as they cut corners to the point where an article posted here complaining about the lack of bathroom doors in hotels. On the other hand, these rentals drive up real estate prices and drives out locals. And often these rentals are in run-down low-income turning affordable yet poor quality housing into high quality temporary rentals. This drives out low income residents deepening income inequality issues while subjecting them to the threat of homelessness. As long as we tolerate a society that only values ROI while ignoring the value of investing in humanity we won't resolve any of these issues. In a better world we would think about others and realize that easy access to shelter is foundational to stabilizing people to enable them to succeed in life. It's not hard, we have an abundance of materials and labor yet we have built a culture where helping others is some form of weakness for both parties.

showsover 10mo ago
> On one hand, being able to temporarily live in an apartment greatly enhances the immersiveness when your travel - you get to feel like a local and experience life in another place. Yes, if your local life is being inconsiderate and having parties till 3 because you're on holidays. Having an airbnb in your building is terrible as you don't know the people and they don't care about getting to know you. > Hotels suck as they cut corners to the point where an article posted here complaining about the lack of bathroom doors in hotels. The great thing about hotels is that they can be planned for and zoned correctly for. Even so, I've had a hotel go up 100m from my apartment and had to invest in blackout blinds since they chose for a modern design with glass all over (and the lights are bright at night). The biggest problem here in Barcelona is that most airbnbs / short term rentals are companies buying housing as an investment and so are stealing the opportunity from actual people and families trying to live.
- thayne 10mo ago
  > if your local life is being inconsiderate and having parties till 3 because you're on holidays I would expect that to be the minority of visitors. I certainly don't do that when I stay in Airbnbs. > The biggest problem here in Barcelona is that most airbnbs / short term rentals are companies buying housing as an investment and so are stealing the opportunity from actual people and families trying to live. Sure, the problem is balancing that with the desire of tourists that want something better than a hotel.
  - toomuchtodo 10mo ago
    Tourists don't vote, residents do, and even if short term rentals were outlawed, Barcelona and Madrid would remain tourist hotspots (as they were before short term rentals). Certainly, there is a tug of war between tourist dollars vs negative tourist impact, but this math is a function of how impactful tourist decline (if any) would occur by pushing out short term rentals. Hotels always remain an option. Real estate and politics are local, as the sayings go. AirBnB pushed negative externalities on local jurisdictions to achieve their valuation and economic success ("socialize the losses, privatize the gains"), and these efforts are just pushing them back in some form. Tourists should remember that they are guests in the places that host them, and it is a privilege to be hosted.
  - tclancy 10mo ago
    >I would expect that to be the minority of visitors. If you share a wall or ceiling or are next door to one, how small would the minority have to be to keep you from being annoyed?
  - lm28469 10mo ago
    > I would expect that to be the minority of visitors. If you live next to one the "minority" is at least once a week, usually on a workday because they're in vacation while you're not. You get extra trash everywhere, puke in the staircase, empty bottles in front of the building, condoms thrown out of windows, &c. it's a never ending nightmare
- subpixel 10mo ago
HDThoreaun 10mo ago
Spains problem is that their economy is terrible. Tourism is almost 15% of barcelona's economy so the tourism sector has political power but all the people who dont benefit from it are pissed. They cant afford to piss off the tourists but tourism has a lot of negative externalities.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
embedding-shape 10mo ago
> As long as we tolerate a society that only values ROI while ignoring the value of investing in humanity we won't resolve any of these issues. That's exactly what we're not tolerating here in Spain. We have guaranteed right to "decent and adequate housing" enshrined in the constitution, which is why you're seeing these aggressive moves against companies that actively work against us having that. I guess we in Spain are a bit of guinea pigs regarding this, as we've been hit hard by Airbnb et al, but we also have strong social movements trying to fight back, and right now being a bit successful. Gonna be interesting to see how it looks like in 5-10 years again, once we start to see the effect of the new laws passed these last few years.
givemeethekeys 10mo ago
If there is such a burnout, then why doesn’t the government just stop letting so many people in? This feels more like a scapegoat situation.
- tverbeure 10mo ago
  “just” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.
  - givemeethekeys 10mo ago
    Tourists don’t travel illegally. What am I missing?
    - tverbeure 10mo ago
      You’re reducing a very complex problem to a meaningless slogan.
    - hackable_sand 10mo ago
      > travel illegally What does this even mean? It's not illegal to travel
      - deleted 10mo ago
        [deleted]
- izacus 10mo ago
  Whenever you use the phrase "why don't you just", you're almost certainly about to say something utterly dumb and poorly thought out. Stop and think a bit more instead.
  - givemeethekeys 10mo ago
    Fine, read it without the "just" if it makes you happy.
  - 10mo ago
nradov 10mo ago
The weird thing is that in many cities there is a persistent and ongoing market failure where legitimate hotels in tourist areas often don't offer accommodations suitable for families with multiple children. There are often no hotel rooms with 3+ beds and kitchenette: it's not that they're more expensive, they simply don't exist at any price. So despite the social problems that Airbnb causes they do address a real market demand. Why aren't the hotel chains doing more to compete? What am I missing here?
- ryan_lane 10mo ago
  > There are often no hotel rooms with 3+ beds and kitchenette There are very few hotels with kitchenettes. Most people don't cook (and don't want to cook) on vacation. Most hotels also don't cater to the low-income, and folks who cook on travel tend to be low-income. There's business rentals that offer this, but they're often not bookable for short-terms (usually 2+ weeks minimum). Most hotels can accommodate 5+ people in a room, if you call them. Though no rooms (except suites) will have more than 2 beds, hotels will provide cots. In general, though, rooms aren't expected to host any more than that, and if you have more people than that, the expectation is that you'd book more than one room. Plenty of hotels have adjoining rooms for this purpose. Again, though, hotels aren't really targeting low-income folks. Airbnbs can be cheaper in this regard, but most rentals on Airbnb charge by the person, so in some cases can be as expensive or more expensive than getting 2 rooms. In either case, I think the issue is your needs are uncommon for vacation travel.
  - nradov 10mo ago
    It's not about low-income people. Those needs are actually quite common among upper-middle class American vacation travelers with children so I assume you don't know many of them. Regardless of expense it's a huge hassle to drag multiple small children to a restaurant for three meals per day for a week. For at least some meals it ends up just being a lot easier to heat up something in the hotel room. I am well aware that hotels will provide cots. Cots are torture. No one wants to sleep on a hotel cot. And even if hotels have adjoining rooms they often won't guarantee to give them to you when you make a reservation. It makes no sense at all.
lm28469 10mo ago
> you get to feel like a local and experience life in another place. Like a local with your fellow thousands of other tourists doing the same things, going to the same places, taking the same pictures? Traveling became the most abject consumeristic activity, there is nothing "local" left in these holiday hubs
QGQBGdeZREunxLe 10mo ago
I’ve always thought a solution would be to allow Airbnb but cap the amount you can earn per property to the equivalent of an average annual rent. This wouldn’t outright ban short-term rentals, but it would reduce the largest financial incentive. I say this selfishly, as someone who wants to use the platform while still occupying my own place. Something that offering it as a full-time rental doesn’t allow.
- 6510 10mo ago
  The most obvious solution is never going to happen. Just have a tax and pay the natives for being a tourist attraction.
danielscrubs 10mo ago
This burden is on politicians. If you can extract enough value from tourism you both lessen the tourism and get people more happy about tourists. The monetary value has to match the damage it does to have people caring less about the “environment” they are in (gossip puts pressure on people to behave, just like renting puts less pressure on people to take care of their apartment).
thefz 10mo ago
> As long as we tolerate a society that only values ROI while ignoring the value of investing in humanity Wow, it looks like unbridled capitalism isn't the answer after all.

showsover 10mo ago

> On one hand, being able to temporarily live in an apartment greatly enhances the immersiveness when your travel - you get to feel like a local and experience life in another place. Yes, if your local life is being inconsiderate and having parties till 3 because you're on holidays. Having an airbnb in your building is terrible as you don't know the people and they don't care about getting to know you. > Hotels suck as they cut corners to the point where an article posted here complaining about the lack of bathroom doors in hotels. The great thing about hotels is that they can be planned for and zoned correctly for. Even so, I've had a hotel go up 100m from my apartment and had to invest in blackout blinds since they chose for a modern design with glass all over (and the lights are bright at night). The biggest problem here in Barcelona is that most airbnbs / short term rentals are companies buying housing as an investment and so are stealing the opportunity from actual people and families trying to live.

thayne 10mo ago
> if your local life is being inconsiderate and having parties till 3 because you're on holidays I would expect that to be the minority of visitors. I certainly don't do that when I stay in Airbnbs. > The biggest problem here in Barcelona is that most airbnbs / short term rentals are companies buying housing as an investment and so are stealing the opportunity from actual people and families trying to live. Sure, the problem is balancing that with the desire of tourists that want something better than a hotel.
- toomuchtodo 10mo ago
  Tourists don't vote, residents do, and even if short term rentals were outlawed, Barcelona and Madrid would remain tourist hotspots (as they were before short term rentals). Certainly, there is a tug of war between tourist dollars vs negative tourist impact, but this math is a function of how impactful tourist decline (if any) would occur by pushing out short term rentals. Hotels always remain an option. Real estate and politics are local, as the sayings go. AirBnB pushed negative externalities on local jurisdictions to achieve their valuation and economic success ("socialize the losses, privatize the gains"), and these efforts are just pushing them back in some form. Tourists should remember that they are guests in the places that host them, and it is a privilege to be hosted.
- tclancy 10mo ago
  >I would expect that to be the minority of visitors. If you share a wall or ceiling or are next door to one, how small would the minority have to be to keep you from being annoyed?
- lm28469 10mo ago
  > I would expect that to be the minority of visitors. If you live next to one the "minority" is at least once a week, usually on a workday because they're in vacation while you're not. You get extra trash everywhere, puke in the staircase, empty bottles in front of the building, condoms thrown out of windows, &c. it's a never ending nightmare
subpixel 10mo ago

HDThoreaun 10mo ago

Spains problem is that their economy is terrible. Tourism is almost 15% of barcelona's economy so the tourism sector has political power but all the people who dont benefit from it are pissed. They cant afford to piss off the tourists but tourism has a lot of negative externalities.

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]

embedding-shape 10mo ago

> As long as we tolerate a society that only values ROI while ignoring the value of investing in humanity we won't resolve any of these issues. That's exactly what we're not tolerating here in Spain. We have guaranteed right to "decent and adequate housing" enshrined in the constitution, which is why you're seeing these aggressive moves against companies that actively work against us having that. I guess we in Spain are a bit of guinea pigs regarding this, as we've been hit hard by Airbnb et al, but we also have strong social movements trying to fight back, and right now being a bit successful. Gonna be interesting to see how it looks like in 5-10 years again, once we start to see the effect of the new laws passed these last few years.

givemeethekeys 10mo ago

If there is such a burnout, then why doesn’t the government just stop letting so many people in? This feels more like a scapegoat situation.

tverbeure 10mo ago
“just” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.
- givemeethekeys 10mo ago
  Tourists don’t travel illegally. What am I missing?
  - tverbeure 10mo ago
    You’re reducing a very complex problem to a meaningless slogan.
  - hackable_sand 10mo ago
    > travel illegally What does this even mean? It's not illegal to travel
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
izacus 10mo ago
Whenever you use the phrase "why don't you just", you're almost certainly about to say something utterly dumb and poorly thought out. Stop and think a bit more instead.
- givemeethekeys 10mo ago
  Fine, read it without the "just" if it makes you happy.
- 10mo ago

nradov 10mo ago

The weird thing is that in many cities there is a persistent and ongoing market failure where legitimate hotels in tourist areas often don't offer accommodations suitable for families with multiple children. There are often no hotel rooms with 3+ beds and kitchenette: it's not that they're more expensive, they simply don't exist at any price. So despite the social problems that Airbnb causes they do address a real market demand. Why aren't the hotel chains doing more to compete? What am I missing here?

ryan_lane 10mo ago
> There are often no hotel rooms with 3+ beds and kitchenette There are very few hotels with kitchenettes. Most people don't cook (and don't want to cook) on vacation. Most hotels also don't cater to the low-income, and folks who cook on travel tend to be low-income. There's business rentals that offer this, but they're often not bookable for short-terms (usually 2+ weeks minimum). Most hotels can accommodate 5+ people in a room, if you call them. Though no rooms (except suites) will have more than 2 beds, hotels will provide cots. In general, though, rooms aren't expected to host any more than that, and if you have more people than that, the expectation is that you'd book more than one room. Plenty of hotels have adjoining rooms for this purpose. Again, though, hotels aren't really targeting low-income folks. Airbnbs can be cheaper in this regard, but most rentals on Airbnb charge by the person, so in some cases can be as expensive or more expensive than getting 2 rooms. In either case, I think the issue is your needs are uncommon for vacation travel.
- nradov 10mo ago
  It's not about low-income people. Those needs are actually quite common among upper-middle class American vacation travelers with children so I assume you don't know many of them. Regardless of expense it's a huge hassle to drag multiple small children to a restaurant for three meals per day for a week. For at least some meals it ends up just being a lot easier to heat up something in the hotel room. I am well aware that hotels will provide cots. Cots are torture. No one wants to sleep on a hotel cot. And even if hotels have adjoining rooms they often won't guarantee to give them to you when you make a reservation. It makes no sense at all.

lm28469 10mo ago

> you get to feel like a local and experience life in another place. Like a local with your fellow thousands of other tourists doing the same things, going to the same places, taking the same pictures? Traveling became the most abject consumeristic activity, there is nothing "local" left in these holiday hubs

QGQBGdeZREunxLe 10mo ago

I’ve always thought a solution would be to allow Airbnb but cap the amount you can earn per property to the equivalent of an average annual rent. This wouldn’t outright ban short-term rentals, but it would reduce the largest financial incentive. I say this selfishly, as someone who wants to use the platform while still occupying my own place. Something that offering it as a full-time rental doesn’t allow.

6510 10mo ago
The most obvious solution is never going to happen. Just have a tax and pay the natives for being a tourist attraction.

danielscrubs 10mo ago

This burden is on politicians. If you can extract enough value from tourism you both lessen the tourism and get people more happy about tourists. The monetary value has to match the damage it does to have people caring less about the “environment” they are in (gossip puts pressure on people to behave, just like renting puts less pressure on people to take care of their apartment).

thefz 10mo ago

> As long as we tolerate a society that only values ROI while ignoring the value of investing in humanity Wow, it looks like unbridled capitalism isn't the answer after all.