4 ms·

it's even worse than that! non-devs are doing it as well

by reedf1 10mo ago

snowstormsun 10mo ago
it's even worse than that! bots are doing it as well
- pydry 10mo ago
  Hopefully once this AI nonsense blows over they'll reach the same realisation they did after the mid 2000s outsourcing craze: that actually you gotta pay for good engineering talent.
- marcosdumay 10mo ago
  Abandon any platform that decides to put bots into your workflow without you telling it to. Vote with your wallet.
vernrVingingIt 10mo ago
[flagged]
- whattheheckheck 10mo ago
  What process / path do you take to get to such an enlightened state? Like books or experience or anything more about this please?
  - vernrVingingIt 10mo ago
    Bachelors in electrical engineering, masters in math; elastic structures applied to modeling electrical systems. Started career in late 90s designing boards for telecom companies network backbones.
- rcbdev 10mo ago
  This sounds like the exact kind of profound pseudo-enlightenment that one gets from psychedelics. Of course, it's all electrons in the end. Trying to create a secure, reliable and scalable system that enables many people to work on one code base, share their code around with others and at the end of the day coordinate this dance of electrons across multiple computers, that's where all of these 'useless' layers of abstraction become absolutely necessary.
  - vernrVingingIt 10mo ago
    Try almost 30 years in electrical engineering. I know exactly what those layers of abstraction are used for. Why so many? Jobs making layers of abstraction. But all of them are dev friendly means of modeling memory states for the CPU to watch and transform just so. They can all be compressed into a generic and generalized set of mathematical functions ridding ourselves of the various parser rules to manage each bespoke syntax inherent to each DSL, layers of framework.
    - nkohari 10mo ago
      > I know exactly what those layers of abstraction are used for. Why so many? Jobs making layers of abstraction. This is a perfect example of Chesterson's Fence. Is it true that there are too many levels of abstraction, that YAML configuration files are a pain in the ass, and so on? Yes. But it's because this stuff was created organically, by thousands of people, over decades of time, and it isn't feasible to just start over from first principles. I don't know enough about electrical engineering to speak to it (funny how that works!) but I'm sure there are plenty of cases in EE that just come down to "that's how it's been done forever".
      - vernrVingingIt 10mo ago
        Well starting over from first principles is exactly what the chip design and manufacture industry is doing. We also cannot afford, in non-finance terms, to burn all the resources on conservation of the existing software mess. Automation is making it pretty easy to generalize all the abstraction into math automatically to inform how to evolve the manufacturing process. Using American principles against Americans, it would run afoul of American free speech and agency ideals to dictate chip makers only engage in speech and agency that benefits software engineers. Was in the room 25 years ago being instructed to help offshore hardware manufacturing as it was realized keeping such knowledge and informed workers domestic posed an existential threat to copyright cartels and media censorship interests. It's a long term goal that was set aside during the ZIRP era as everyone was happy making money hand over fist. Guess you all should have paid more attention to politics than believe since it only exists as a socialized theory it isn't real and can safely be ignored. Americans make up a small portion of the 8 billion humans, and software engineers are an even smaller percent of the population. Other nations have rebuilt since the US bombed them to hell. They're not beholden to kowtow to a minority of the overall population. Would recommend you set aside thinking in abstract philosophy puzzles and relate to world via its real physical properties.
- nanomonkey 10mo ago
  There are some contradictory claims here. Boilerplate comes when your language doesn't have affordances, you get around this with /abstraction/ which leads to DSLs (Domain Specific Languages). Matrix math is generally done on more than raw bits provided by digital circuits. Simple things like numbers require some amount of abstraction and indirection (pointers to memory addresses that begin arrays). My point is yes, we've gotten ourselves in a complicated tar pit, but it's not because there wasn't a simpler solution lower in the stack.
- iwontberude 10mo ago
  And here I thought people just used computers for the heat
- stephen_cagle 10mo ago
  I honestly can't tell if you are speaking in metaphor or literally?
esafak 10mo ago
That's what democratization looks like. And the new participants are happy!
- rvz 10mo ago
  …Until you tell them to maintain all the technical debt that was generated when it breaks and waste more time and money / tokens on fixing the security issues. A great time to be a vibe coding cleanup specialist (i.e, professional security software engineer)

it's even worse than that! non-devs are doing it as well

by reedf1 10mo ago

it's even worse than that! non-devs are doing it as well

snowstormsun 10mo ago

it's even worse than that! bots are doing it as well

pydry 10mo ago
Hopefully once this AI nonsense blows over they'll reach the same realisation they did after the mid 2000s outsourcing craze: that actually you gotta pay for good engineering talent.
marcosdumay 10mo ago
Abandon any platform that decides to put bots into your workflow without you telling it to. Vote with your wallet.

vernrVingingIt 10mo ago

[flagged]

whattheheckheck 10mo ago
What process / path do you take to get to such an enlightened state? Like books or experience or anything more about this please?
- vernrVingingIt 10mo ago
  Bachelors in electrical engineering, masters in math; elastic structures applied to modeling electrical systems. Started career in late 90s designing boards for telecom companies network backbones.
rcbdev 10mo ago
This sounds like the exact kind of profound pseudo-enlightenment that one gets from psychedelics. Of course, it's all electrons in the end. Trying to create a secure, reliable and scalable system that enables many people to work on one code base, share their code around with others and at the end of the day coordinate this dance of electrons across multiple computers, that's where all of these 'useless' layers of abstraction become absolutely necessary.
- vernrVingingIt 10mo ago
  Try almost 30 years in electrical engineering. I know exactly what those layers of abstraction are used for. Why so many? Jobs making layers of abstraction. But all of them are dev friendly means of modeling memory states for the CPU to watch and transform just so. They can all be compressed into a generic and generalized set of mathematical functions ridding ourselves of the various parser rules to manage each bespoke syntax inherent to each DSL, layers of framework.
  - nkohari 10mo ago
    > I know exactly what those layers of abstraction are used for. Why so many? Jobs making layers of abstraction. This is a perfect example of Chesterson's Fence. Is it true that there are too many levels of abstraction, that YAML configuration files are a pain in the ass, and so on? Yes. But it's because this stuff was created organically, by thousands of people, over decades of time, and it isn't feasible to just start over from first principles. I don't know enough about electrical engineering to speak to it (funny how that works!) but I'm sure there are plenty of cases in EE that just come down to "that's how it's been done forever".
    - vernrVingingIt 10mo ago
      Well starting over from first principles is exactly what the chip design and manufacture industry is doing. We also cannot afford, in non-finance terms, to burn all the resources on conservation of the existing software mess. Automation is making it pretty easy to generalize all the abstraction into math automatically to inform how to evolve the manufacturing process. Using American principles against Americans, it would run afoul of American free speech and agency ideals to dictate chip makers only engage in speech and agency that benefits software engineers. Was in the room 25 years ago being instructed to help offshore hardware manufacturing as it was realized keeping such knowledge and informed workers domestic posed an existential threat to copyright cartels and media censorship interests. It's a long term goal that was set aside during the ZIRP era as everyone was happy making money hand over fist. Guess you all should have paid more attention to politics than believe since it only exists as a socialized theory it isn't real and can safely be ignored. Americans make up a small portion of the 8 billion humans, and software engineers are an even smaller percent of the population. Other nations have rebuilt since the US bombed them to hell. They're not beholden to kowtow to a minority of the overall population. Would recommend you set aside thinking in abstract philosophy puzzles and relate to world via its real physical properties.
nanomonkey 10mo ago
There are some contradictory claims here. Boilerplate comes when your language doesn't have affordances, you get around this with /abstraction/ which leads to DSLs (Domain Specific Languages). Matrix math is generally done on more than raw bits provided by digital circuits. Simple things like numbers require some amount of abstraction and indirection (pointers to memory addresses that begin arrays). My point is yes, we've gotten ourselves in a complicated tar pit, but it's not because there wasn't a simpler solution lower in the stack.
iwontberude 10mo ago
And here I thought people just used computers for the heat
stephen_cagle 10mo ago
I honestly can't tell if you are speaking in metaphor or literally?

esafak 10mo ago

That's what democratization looks like. And the new participants are happy!

rvz 10mo ago
…Until you tell them to maintain all the technical debt that was generated when it breaks and waste more time and money / tokens on fixing the security issues. A great time to be a vibe coding cleanup specialist (i.e, professional security software engineer)