12 ms·

> Yes, it’s borderline slave labor I'm sorry, how is it "borderline" slave labour and not straight up forced labour? These people are imprisoned, and I'm assum

> Yes, it’s borderline slave labor I'm sorry, how is it "borderline" slave labour and not straight up forced labour? These people are imprisoned, and I'm assuming forced to do this work, or what happens if they say no? It's quite literally known as "penal labour" and I thought most of the world figured out that we're not supposed to treat people like that anymore.

MangoToupe 11mo ago
Even our legal system recognizes it as slave labor. The thirteenth amendment specifically says: "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
- reactordev 11mo ago
  yes but except as a punishment for crime whereof has been refined with further case law I believe. You can be forced to do small jobs, clean up. You can be assigned Road Crew and pickup trash. You can do small jobs that the system won't hire and pay for, they'll use you. So long as you aren't a risk of flight, to the officers, or to society if you have to interact with the public. Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress.
  - kelnos 11mo ago
    > Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress. Does it, though? One might prefer that over slave labor.
  - qingcharles 11mo ago
    Yes, you don't need to be convicted to be forced into labor under the 13th. Pretrial detainees can be forced to do "housekeeping chores" and not violate the constitution.
    - reactordev 11mo ago
      That actually is a good point, in the US justice system, you’re guilty until proven innocent (for most people). Just the fact that you have a case has ruined lives.
    - LocalH 11mo ago
      This shows that the government (all branches) has always ignored the Constitution. It clearly says in the 13th that it requires the person to be "duly convicted".
      - qingcharles 11mo ago
        There was a lawsuit, and the US Supreme Court interpreted the 13th amendment and carved out an exception, because of course they did.
  - MangoToupe 11mo ago
    I would certainly prefer to jerk off in my cell over working for pennies on the dollar. But it doesn't matter, really. Either we have rights as humans or we don't. Qualifying them erodes protections for us all.
xienze 11mo ago
> and not straight up forced labour? Well you’re making the assumption that prisoners are forced to do this work rather than opting to in order to make a little money for snacks and/or make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board.
- komali2 11mo ago
  It's still slave labor if the most basic of comforts and privileges are locked away from you if you don't participate. Plus you don't really have choice in the labor you perform, no choice in where you perform it, no choice in when, you aren't really paid, you can only spend money in the commissary (at insanely inflated prices). Sure it's not a slave on a cotton field getting whipped for not meeting quota, but it really isn't far from that.
- 1-more 11mo ago
  > make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board It can be a bit more explicit than that: in Colorado, inmates can earn 10–12 days per month of "earned time." Earned time shortens the time until eligibility for parole. Section D in the linked document (from the linked department policies page section 625-02) gives examples of behavior that can add up to earned time. For instance, a day of work at a disaster site is worth a day of earned time (D.4.a.1) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijvSP6Fb/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijv... https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies
danvayn 11mo ago
They can say no. These Prisons incentivize inmates to opt in by claiming that prisoners develop employable marketable skills and that the work leaves a a good mark on their record. It can also pay out cents to a few dollars an hour (or nothing at all) It’s not quite slave labor but it probably should be compensated better at the minimum.
- embedding-shape 11mo ago
  Never heard about it myself before, and went to Wikipedia of course, and found this: > Prison labor in the US is mostly optional. Although inmates are paid for their labor in most states, they usually receive less than $1 per hour. As of 2017, Arkansas, Georgia, and Texas did not pay inmates for any work whether inside the prison (such as custodial work and food services) or in state-owned businesses. Additionally, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and South Carolina allowed unpaid labor for at least some jobs. Incarcerated individuals who are required to work typically receive minimal to no job training resulting in situations where their health and safety could potentially be compromised. Prison workers in the US are generally exempt from workers' rights and occupational safety protections, including when seriously injured or killed. Often times, inmates that are often overworked through penal labor do not receive any proper education or opportunities of "rehabilitation" to maximize profits off the cheap labor produced. Many incarcerated workers also struggle to purchase basic necessities as prices of goods continue to soar, meanwhile prison wages continue to stay the same. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States#Modern_prison_labor_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name.
  - SR2Z 11mo ago
    > It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Most of these are true, but I would push back on the pay angle. If a person is in jail, they are a ward of the state and have no expenses at all. There is no sense in paying them a "living wage" because they don't have to live off it. In any case, most stereotypical prison jobs would not cover the cost of incarcerating the employee. A common way this works these days in more progressive states is that prisoners who can hold down a remote job are allowed to keep their income, minus paying a tithe for their incarceration: https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-are-thriving-in-remote-jobs-and-other-states-are-taking-notice https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-ar... > Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name. Only about 10% of prisoners are in private prisons. The vast majority of them are in some kind of government prison. The US definitely puts too many people in prison, but that's for cultural reasons and not because of some nefarious plan to get cheap labor.
Aurornis 11mo ago
> These people are imprisoned, and I'm assuming forced to do this work This is an incorrect assumption, at least in my state. It’s a job that they can apply for and opt in to do. The debate is about their hourly wage. There is a possibility of forced penal labor, as I understand it, but it’s mostly things like being forced to do cleaning duties, road cleanup, etc.
- embedding-shape 11mo ago
  [flagged]
- culi 11mo ago
  Prisoners are charged rent. The hourly wages have no minimum wage and are usually cents on the dollar. Definitely not enough to pay their rent for their cell. It's slavery. The South fought hard to include the "except as punishment for crime" clause in the 13th amendment. The US has never fully abolished slavery.
  - oniony 11mo ago
    Say what? Prisoners pay rent?
    - decimalenough 11mo ago
      Yup! > Fees for room and board—yes, literally for a thin mattress or even a plastic “boat” bed in a hallway, a toilet that may not flush, and scant, awful tasting food—are typically charged at a “per diem rate for the length of incarceration.” It is not uncommon for these fees to reach $20 to $80 a day for the entire period of incarceration. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/americas-dystopian-incarceration-system-pay-stay-behind-bars https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/amer...
      - phanimahesh 11mo ago
        Holy hell I've read it's bad but this is horrible but very on brand for the capital of capitalism.

MangoToupe 11mo ago

Even our legal system recognizes it as slave labor. The thirteenth amendment specifically says: "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

reactordev 11mo ago
yes but except as a punishment for crime whereof has been refined with further case law I believe. You can be forced to do small jobs, clean up. You can be assigned Road Crew and pickup trash. You can do small jobs that the system won't hire and pay for, they'll use you. So long as you aren't a risk of flight, to the officers, or to society if you have to interact with the public. Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress.
- kelnos 11mo ago
  > Beats sitting in a cinderblock white-painted cell with a metal cot and 4" mattress. Does it, though? One might prefer that over slave labor.
- qingcharles 11mo ago
  Yes, you don't need to be convicted to be forced into labor under the 13th. Pretrial detainees can be forced to do "housekeeping chores" and not violate the constitution.
  - reactordev 11mo ago
    That actually is a good point, in the US justice system, you’re guilty until proven innocent (for most people). Just the fact that you have a case has ruined lives.
  - LocalH 11mo ago
    This shows that the government (all branches) has always ignored the Constitution. It clearly says in the 13th that it requires the person to be "duly convicted".
    - qingcharles 11mo ago
      There was a lawsuit, and the US Supreme Court interpreted the 13th amendment and carved out an exception, because of course they did.
- MangoToupe 11mo ago
  I would certainly prefer to jerk off in my cell over working for pennies on the dollar. But it doesn't matter, really. Either we have rights as humans or we don't. Qualifying them erodes protections for us all.

xienze 11mo ago

> and not straight up forced labour? Well you’re making the assumption that prisoners are forced to do this work rather than opting to in order to make a little money for snacks and/or make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board.

komali2 11mo ago
It's still slave labor if the most basic of comforts and privileges are locked away from you if you don't participate. Plus you don't really have choice in the labor you perform, no choice in where you perform it, no choice in when, you aren't really paid, you can only spend money in the commissary (at insanely inflated prices). Sure it's not a slave on a cotton field getting whipped for not meeting quota, but it really isn't far from that.
1-more 11mo ago
> make a case for good behavior when they come before the parole board It can be a bit more explicit than that: in Colorado, inmates can earn 10–12 days per month of "earned time." Earned time shortens the time until eligibility for parole. Section D in the linked document (from the linked department policies page section 625-02) gives examples of behavior that can add up to earned time. For instance, a day of work at a disaster site is worth a day of earned time (D.4.a.1) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijvSP6Fb/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q6IXf-yWnbA3Ujjejola7fiwijv... https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies https://cdoc.colorado.gov/about/department-policies

danvayn 11mo ago

They can say no. These Prisons incentivize inmates to opt in by claiming that prisoners develop employable marketable skills and that the work leaves a a good mark on their record. It can also pay out cents to a few dollars an hour (or nothing at all) It’s not quite slave labor but it probably should be compensated better at the minimum.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
Never heard about it myself before, and went to Wikipedia of course, and found this: > Prison labor in the US is mostly optional. Although inmates are paid for their labor in most states, they usually receive less than $1 per hour. As of 2017, Arkansas, Georgia, and Texas did not pay inmates for any work whether inside the prison (such as custodial work and food services) or in state-owned businesses. Additionally, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and South Carolina allowed unpaid labor for at least some jobs. Incarcerated individuals who are required to work typically receive minimal to no job training resulting in situations where their health and safety could potentially be compromised. Prison workers in the US are generally exempt from workers' rights and occupational safety protections, including when seriously injured or killed. Often times, inmates that are often overworked through penal labor do not receive any proper education or opportunities of "rehabilitation" to maximize profits off the cheap labor produced. Many incarcerated workers also struggle to purchase basic necessities as prices of goods continue to soar, meanwhile prison wages continue to stay the same. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States#Modern_prison_labor_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name.
- SR2Z 11mo ago
  > It sounds like it isn't optional everywhere, the pay is beyond inhuman, they don't always get any benefits at all, no training, don't safety and are overworked. Most of these are true, but I would push back on the pay angle. If a person is in jail, they are a ward of the state and have no expenses at all. There is no sense in paying them a "living wage" because they don't have to live off it. In any case, most stereotypical prison jobs would not cover the cost of incarcerating the employee. A common way this works these days in more progressive states is that prisoners who can hold down a remote job are allowed to keep their income, minus paying a tithe for their incarceration: https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-are-thriving-in-remote-jobs-and-other-states-are-taking-notice https://www.mainepublic.org/2025-08-29/in-maine-prisoners-ar... > Overall, sounds like a nice idea on paper, but combine it with private companies actually running these prisons and probably making profits on having more f̵o̵r̵c̵e̵d̵ labour available to them and you basically re-invented slavery again, just with a nicer name. Only about 10% of prisoners are in private prisons. The vast majority of them are in some kind of government prison. The US definitely puts too many people in prison, but that's for cultural reasons and not because of some nefarious plan to get cheap labor.

Aurornis 11mo ago

> These people are imprisoned, and I'm assuming forced to do this work This is an incorrect assumption, at least in my state. It’s a job that they can apply for and opt in to do. The debate is about their hourly wage. There is a possibility of forced penal labor, as I understand it, but it’s mostly things like being forced to do cleaning duties, road cleanup, etc.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
[flagged]
culi 11mo ago
Prisoners are charged rent. The hourly wages have no minimum wage and are usually cents on the dollar. Definitely not enough to pay their rent for their cell. It's slavery. The South fought hard to include the "except as punishment for crime" clause in the 13th amendment. The US has never fully abolished slavery.
- oniony 11mo ago
  Say what? Prisoners pay rent?
  - decimalenough 11mo ago
    Yup! > Fees for room and board—yes, literally for a thin mattress or even a plastic “boat” bed in a hallway, a toilet that may not flush, and scant, awful tasting food—are typically charged at a “per diem rate for the length of incarceration.” It is not uncommon for these fees to reach $20 to $80 a day for the entire period of incarceration. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/americas-dystopian-incarceration-system-pay-stay-behind-bars https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/amer...
    - phanimahesh 11mo ago
      Holy hell I've read it's bad but this is horrible but very on brand for the capital of capitalism.