5 ms·
(I'm a mod here) It's true that this place can be cryptic, and that has downsides—specifically, it can be confusing to newcomers, even to some newcomers who wo
by dang 11mo ago
(I'm a mod here)
It's true that this place can be cryptic, and that has downsides—specifically, it can be confusing to newcomers, even to some newcomers who would make ideal HN users. That sucks.
But there's a key that unlocks most of the puzzles. That is to understand that we're optimizing for exactly one thing: curiosity. (Specifically, intellectual curiosity, since there are other kinds of curiosity too.) Here are links to past explanations about that: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
We try to elevate things that gratify curiosity: creative work, surprising discoveries, deep dives, technical achievements, unusual personal experience, whimsical unpredictability, good conversation, etc. And we try to demote things that run against curiosity, especially repetition, indignation, sensationalism, and promotion.
It gets complicated because you'll also see plenty of repetition, indignation, sensationalism, and promotion on HN—alas! This is the internet after all. But the site survives because the balance of these things stays within tolerable ranges, thanks to two factors: an active community which cares greatly about preserving this place for intended purpose (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html); and an owner (Y Combinator) that pays us to work on the site full time and mainly just wants us to keep it good, to the extent possible.
If you really want to figure this place out, the way to do it is as a reader. Hang out on the site, look at the mix of articles that make the frontpage, spend time in the discussion threads (hopefully the interesting sectors and not the flamey ones!), and over time your eyes will adjust.
What doesn't work—and this is good because we want it not to work—is approaching HN as a platform for promoting content. If you (<-- I don't mean you personally, but anyone) mainly care about "how can I use this thing to get attention for my startup/blog/project/newsletter", then you're operating in 'push' mode rather than 'pull' mode (or 'idle' mode, which is even better). In that case you won't be curious because you're too focused on what you're wanting for extraneous reasons—and if you aren't in a state of curiosity, this place won't make sense. At least we hope it won't!
- fzeindl 11mo agoObviously all of what dang said, but I want to add that I think timing is an additional factor. If you post when silicon valley wakes up on a weekday, you might get “initial” points faster, which leads to your submission being ranked higher up for a while and being more discoverable.
- Imustaskforhelp 11mo agoInteresting stuff but we should keep these secrets otherwise people will try to game this system :)
- Kaibeezy 11mo agoThat (\/) (;,,;) (\/) I’m helping! feeling upon discovering a mod has bumped one of your 04:00 UTC “oh, this is interesting” posts that nobody else saw.
- PaulRobinson 11mo agoA great take, and thanks for your all hard work dang. Yesterday the top comment on two stories I went to discuss had deep and meaningful content, before the last line which was a "and I talk about this stuff all the time on my newsletter [link]", and I was conflicted. Same poster each time. The poster had done the HN thing: responded with thoughtful examination of TFA, unique and interesting insight, and I don't feel it was AI generated. And then they marred it. They pushed something just slightly out of context. Not entirely, just a smidge. I hope we can keep an eye on that sort of thing around here, it feels like it could slide into something...
- silisili 11mo agoNot a mod, but I do hope you flag comments like that. Dang is awesome, but it is user moderation that makes a giant difference.
- jacquesm 11mo agoDone.
- tptacek 11mo agoYou flagged an otherwise good comment because it linked out to a newsletter?
- huhtenberg 11mo agoNot the GP, but, yeah, because it is still a form of spam.
- tptacek 11mo agoIf it's only a link to a newsletter, sure. And "signing" a comment breaks a norm here. But if it's otherwise a good comment, seems like a poor use of "flag"; one of the rare instances where maybe you want to leave a short, polite note ("don't sign off with links to your newsletter, we don't sign things here"). Flagging deprives everyone else of the comment, and is especially hostile if there's already a thread sprouting from that comment.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- jannesblobel 11mo agoJust by reading through all the comments and input under that post — “I know that I know nothing.” — Socrates A lot of the comments and input here make sense. I’ll follow your advice and observe HN for a while, looking for interesting topics that suit me.
- StanislavPetrov 11mo ago> If you (<-- I don't mean you personally, but anyone) "The royal you"
- Nevermark 11mo agoOr the “you, the great unwashed”. Although there is no rule enforcing mutual exclusion.
- dang 11mo agoI've used that construct a lot over the years and it seems to help: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22you%20personally%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- Rendello 11mo agoOne can simply employ 'one' if one fears not the air of pretentiousness.
- Imustaskforhelp 11mo agoYes I agree with your comment, as you say I feel like the author of this post is trying to game the system for their "investors" and I do feel like it doesnt get into the ethos of hackernews Purpose of hackernews as you said is fulfilling curiosity, its not a place where people should try to post to get eyeballs or something because their investors said so. Honestly hackernews to me is a place where tinkering as a hobby is appreciated. I have read so many large threads here and ended up sometimes having a new point of view on something and so many posts here which make me want to be curious and tinker around too. I cannot really name something exactly which clicks on hackernews but that is what makes it unique and this does mean I cannot explain it to others sometimes since my hobbies are tangential to hackernews too, I just end up saying my hobby is tinkering with computers (currently only software)
- WalterBright 11mo agoThank you, dang. Your forum is the best one on the internet, and it's in no small part thanks to your moderation efforts.
- jacquesm 11mo agoI like that, this really is Dan's forum by now. Maybe YC should gift wrap it and make it a nice Christmas present.
- ErroneousBosh 11mo agoI was going to say, isn't "(I'm a mod here)" kind of an understatement? Oida, he has a pager for it.
- Y_Y 11mo agoIs "oida" here a Greek word or a typo or something else? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%B4%CE%B1
- ErroneousBosh 11mo ago"Dude".
- bombcar 11mo agoThe secret to HN is to read it long enough to realize "dang" is a moderator (used to be the moderator). Then you can unlock posting when you realize it's "dan g" not "darn it, dang".
- mithcs 11mo agodang, what a great answer.
- robin_reala 11mo agoWould you be open to making changes that improve the accessibility, without changing the fundamental setup of HN? I’m not proposing a redesign, but for example the textarea I’m typing in has no label (visible or invisible) and the table layout structure could be at least marked as presentational. Unfortunately, regardless of their curiosity, groups of people are finding it harder than necessary to gratify it at HN.
- dang 11mo agoYes. It's just a matter of finding the cycles to work on it, or even to process other people's generous contributions. I've got so many posts backed up in the inbox about that, staring reproachfully at me. One of these days (er, years) we'll do some serious work on that level.
- robin_reala 11mo agoObviously up to you, but I’d be happy to help; this is my specialism and I’ve had a bunch of value out of HN over the years.
- jesusofsuburbia 11mo agoHonest question: was an LLM involved in writing this comment? The em-dash style stood out to me
- dxdm 11mo ago> Honest question: was an LLM involved in writing this comment? The em-dash style stood out to me The use of em dashes looks pretty natural to me. This is how they were used before LLMs, and what LLMs learned from. Em dashes have a useful place in written language. I hope we will not lose their utility because people treat them as enough of a signal on their own to automatically question the authenticity of absolutely well-written pieces of text, without giving the matter any further consideration.
- RobotToaster 11mo agoThe reason em dashes raise suspicion isn't usually because of the lack of utility, it's because they're not easy to type.
- barnabee 11mo agoThey're easy to type on macOS and iOS, which covers quite a large fraction of users
- dkga 11mo agoHuman user of em dashes here. I can't tell you the number of times people thought my 100% human-made prose was "AI" because of the em dashes.
- tptacek 11mo ago"Dan" is an LLM. Did you not know that?
- kingstnap 11mo agoNot sure if this is intentional, but "DAN" (Do anything now) was a cute bit of chatbot internet history lol.
- miki123211 11mo agoHey Dang, I really appreciate all the work you guys are doing. However, I feel like there's a lot more repetition, indignation, sensationalism, and promotion on HN in the last few months than there has ever been. I feel like every other thread on here devolves into an unhinged rant about AI, enshittification, privacy, or crazy conspiracy theories about age restrictions on social media and the politicians passing them (which I'm personally a staunch opponent of). It's all the same arguments over and over, most of them without a shred of evidence. It feels like people aren't arguing in good faith any more, we're all just screaming our politics at (or past) each other. This didn't use to be the case. (yes I know I have showdead on, those are not the dead comments).
- dang 11mo agoI'll give you my take on this but it's just my personal take: I think you're right and wrong—right because HN does go through these waves, but wrong because it's a fluctuation process that stays fairly steady in the long run. (At least we're determined to keep it so, if we can - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=stave%20off%20by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...) That's why people have been experiencing this "HN has gotten a lot more $BAD-QUALITY recently" since pretty much the origin of the site.
- sevensor 11mo agoI’ve been posting here for a decade, and lurking for a few years before that, and your observation tracks with my experience. There’s a handful of ideas we’re collectively mulling over at any given time. They slowly rotate in and out, and modulate into different keys as they go. For instance, the leading edge of LLM related discourse seems to be improving now that we’re getting bored with both hype and outrage, although there’s still plenty of hype and outrage. Old topics still occasionally blip into focus, but they don’t have the same staying power. Like, you’ll see a Rails post every now and then, but it’s not the darling it was. I doubt we’ll ever see the likes of “Rails is a Ghetto” make the rounds again, because nobody’s worked up about it any more. Or take Skrillex, who must have been on the front page every week for a month. I was annoyed at the time, but I think we’re due for a retrospective on programmers and dubstep. I’m not the one to write it though; not my scene in the first place. Anyway, thank you dang for your moderation!
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- AbstractH24 11mo ago> (I'm a mod here) Are there any other mods besides you? Also it just occured to me, is dang one person or a account the represents all mods?
- gabrielsroka 11mo agoThere are other mods. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43558671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43558671
- dang 11mo agoMods have never shared an account - that never felt right to me. But Tom was working on HN for years before he started posting publicly as a mod. That change happened with the announcement you linked to.
- ajjahs 11mo ago[dead]
- baranul 11mo agoThis is basically admitting to gross manipulation and even censorship by "we're optimizing for", "we try to elevate", and "we try to demote things", which looks to be based on personal or corporate biases and tastes. Hacker News can only be "figured out", relative to what looks like the biases and financial interests of ownership and its staff, where they do the "pushing" (elevating) and "demoting". This "state of curiosity" being referred to, appears to include wanting readers to blindly accept what is fed to them, and ignore or not question strange inconsistencies. Newcomers and outsiders would usually be expecting transparency, honesty, and impartiality. Their confusion, can be when they notice the difference in moderation based on adhering to a clear and obvious standard versus the hidden, strange, inexplicable, or unequal treatment.
- dang 11mo agoHN has always been a curated site [1]. That's all that "we try to elevate X and demote Y" means. The frontpage is produced by a combination of community, software, and moderation [2]. All three are necessary - without any one of these, the site would be a completely different place. Despite how dark and sinister you've made everything sound, you've mostly just rephrased what I wrote, with a lot of pejoratives. In that sense, you're right—there isn't much disagreement here. You just think we're wrong and bad to run HN the way we do, and that's fine. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20always%20curated&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20community%20software%20moderation&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...