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What is the calculus behind 40k? I just checked some Swedish vendors and here they calculate 12k for hardware and installation of a fairly large heat pump. htt

What is the calculus behind 40k? I just checked some Swedish vendors and here they calculate 12k for hardware and installation of a fairly large heat pump. https://www.polarpumpen.se/kunskapsbanken/varmepump-kunskapsbank/luft-vattenvarmepump-kunskapsbank/valja-luft-vattenvarmepump/rakna-pa-luft-vattenvarmepump/kostnad/ https://www.polarpumpen.se/kunskapsbanken/varmepump-kunskaps...

willvarfar 10mo ago
Yeah small air-air pumps - which are the most common for single houses - are easily under 2000EUR including installation; if you keep eyes out for special offers it'd be about 1500EUR in Swedish prices.
lnsru 10mo ago
State subsidies and insane overregulation. Think about replacing the cabinet for electricity meters (+4000€) for heat pump installation.
- pjc50 10mo ago
  Why is that required? Switch to three phase? Wasn't required for me in the UK.
  - holowoodman 10mo ago
    No. Everything in Germany has been three-phase since forever. But especially with old houses, with any "not insignificant change" to your electrical setup, you have to bring everything up to modern standards. Also, and connected with that, metering is weird in Germany. If your consumption rises above a certain amount (I think 10MWh for a single-family home) you are required to get a "smart meter", meaning a digital meter which includes the possibility (just the possibility, not actually the real thing) of online reporting and minute-by-minute pricing. In the rest of the world, that would just be swapping the meter or slapping some Wifi-to-IR-interface on it, but not so in Germany. You need to install a new metering cabinet that provides space for at least one digital meter (but better provide more than one...), one remote control receiver (for old-style night/day tariff switches, obsoleted by smart meters but still required nonetheless) and a smart meter gateway. That new metering cabinet needs to conform to standards set by your local electricity supplier (which can be as small as a city), so there is no nation-wide standards, more like 50 of them. And the metering cabinet is huge, not someting like the 30x40cm thing you see on sidewalks in spain or something, no. More like 200x140cm in the smallest(!) version. So those are really expensive just because the market is tiny and the requirements are completely crazy: Even though most smart meter gateways are wireless nowadays (UMTS or GSM) and usually such a gateway won't be installed anyways (because just the possibility of installing one is required), you also need to provide for cabled internet uplink to the metering cabinet. That uplink is a Cat6 cable to the gateway, but it crosses through the electrical uplink part of the cabinet. So the insulation of that cable has to be certified for at least 10kV insulation voltage, at least 80A current on the shielding and more stuff like that. So e.g. just that one stupid half-meter Cat6 cable will set you back 50Eur. Installation isn't any less crazy. You definitely cannot do anything yourself. Even your licensed electrician can only do the menial preparations. When your licensed electrician is done with the prep, you request an appointment with the local supplier's meter installer, who, after a typical wait time of 2 months, will install and seal the meter in the presence of your licensed electrician (who is there to receive complaints about incorrect prep, followed by another 2 months wait time for another appointment...). That's why it's 4kEur... And if you want your power to be a few cents cheaper (28ct/kWh instead of the usual 35ct/kWh), you need an extra meter for your heat pump. Have solar? Another extra meter. Want to charge your electrical car? You guessed right. And you cannot bring your own. Each of those "smart" meters has to be rented from your local supplier at around 20 to 120Eur/year.
    - stefanfisk 10mo ago
      OK, but what about the rest of the price difference? Once the electrical is taken care of it should just be a matter of replacing the furnace and pulling some tubes and wires to the outer unit? You said 40k, but the heat pump itself isn’t even 10k.
      - holowoodman 10mo ago
        I didn't say that, but it is true that in Germany it is extremely expensive, mostly due to installers being greedy. German article, but some translation tool might help: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/waermepumpen-kosten-foerderung-100.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/waermepumpe...
      - moooo99 10mo ago
        The biggest factor is almost certainly the subsidy for switching to a heatpump. But there are other factors as well. Air to Air heatpumps are uncommon in Germany, we usually install Air to Water ones, which are more complex. Unlike other countries, our heat pumps are usually mounted on a concrete slab and not on the wall. Then there are some norms for quality of the water, etc. they aim to increase the lifespan of the system, but increase upfront costs
        stefanfisk 10mo ago
        AFAIK we do all of that in Sweden. The 12k I mentioned above is if a large air to water pump suitable for the northernmost of Sweden. It includes a water heater and direct electric heating element for when temperature go below -15. And why do subsidies INCREASE the price in Germany compared to Sweden?
        sokoloff 10mo ago
        In the US, the subsidy is paid only when the heat pump is installed by a certified contractor. Unshockingly, the certified contractors are able to capture the vast majority of the subsidy as additional profit.
- bratwurst3000 10mo ago
  smart meters are paid by the grid operator and you have to pay maximum 50€ a year for a smartmeter. I honestly dont know where you get your numbers. a friend with a big house and 3 children switched to air water heatpump with floor heating etc and it was 18k€ and half of that paif by the state and the smart meter was mostly free( he pais 25€ a year for it). and this is a hugeeee house. No solar but he is working on it. could you link some proof of this smartmeters I have to pay? Or some calculations from firms it whatever that proof your point.
  - lnsru 10mo ago
    Think about cabinet from 1972 for one electricity meter. Now you have one electricity meter for house electricity and second one with dynamic plan for heat pump and spare place prepared for third meter for wallbox. So the new cabinet costs you 3000€ including my work and it’s not seldom, that the house has no grounding rod. With couple small repairs/upgrades it’s 4000€ without VAT. And since everything must be documented I can’t work without invoice. It has nothing to do with smart meters. Some electrical installations are heavily outdated by today’s norms. And norms are obviously written by greedy suppliers of the cabinets and parts for them. Worst thing is that I can’t make any money by selling this stuff. It’s already too expensive for the people. And it will not be cheaper with Paragraf §14a EnWG.
ZeroGravitas 10mo ago
Octopus and a German University did a report on costs. UK heat pumps are half the cost of German installs 14k Vs 28k euros. Theres multiple reasons given: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2025/03/13/heat-pumps-in-germany-nearly-twice-as-expensive-as-in-uk/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2025/03/13/heat-pumps-in-germany... Also, I believe Octopus have nearly halved the UK price since that report by optimising installs.

willvarfar 10mo ago

Yeah small air-air pumps - which are the most common for single houses - are easily under 2000EUR including installation; if you keep eyes out for special offers it'd be about 1500EUR in Swedish prices.

lnsru 10mo ago

State subsidies and insane overregulation. Think about replacing the cabinet for electricity meters (+4000€) for heat pump installation.

pjc50 10mo ago
Why is that required? Switch to three phase? Wasn't required for me in the UK.
- holowoodman 10mo ago
  No. Everything in Germany has been three-phase since forever. But especially with old houses, with any "not insignificant change" to your electrical setup, you have to bring everything up to modern standards. Also, and connected with that, metering is weird in Germany. If your consumption rises above a certain amount (I think 10MWh for a single-family home) you are required to get a "smart meter", meaning a digital meter which includes the possibility (just the possibility, not actually the real thing) of online reporting and minute-by-minute pricing. In the rest of the world, that would just be swapping the meter or slapping some Wifi-to-IR-interface on it, but not so in Germany. You need to install a new metering cabinet that provides space for at least one digital meter (but better provide more than one...), one remote control receiver (for old-style night/day tariff switches, obsoleted by smart meters but still required nonetheless) and a smart meter gateway. That new metering cabinet needs to conform to standards set by your local electricity supplier (which can be as small as a city), so there is no nation-wide standards, more like 50 of them. And the metering cabinet is huge, not someting like the 30x40cm thing you see on sidewalks in spain or something, no. More like 200x140cm in the smallest(!) version. So those are really expensive just because the market is tiny and the requirements are completely crazy: Even though most smart meter gateways are wireless nowadays (UMTS or GSM) and usually such a gateway won't be installed anyways (because just the possibility of installing one is required), you also need to provide for cabled internet uplink to the metering cabinet. That uplink is a Cat6 cable to the gateway, but it crosses through the electrical uplink part of the cabinet. So the insulation of that cable has to be certified for at least 10kV insulation voltage, at least 80A current on the shielding and more stuff like that. So e.g. just that one stupid half-meter Cat6 cable will set you back 50Eur. Installation isn't any less crazy. You definitely cannot do anything yourself. Even your licensed electrician can only do the menial preparations. When your licensed electrician is done with the prep, you request an appointment with the local supplier's meter installer, who, after a typical wait time of 2 months, will install and seal the meter in the presence of your licensed electrician (who is there to receive complaints about incorrect prep, followed by another 2 months wait time for another appointment...). That's why it's 4kEur... And if you want your power to be a few cents cheaper (28ct/kWh instead of the usual 35ct/kWh), you need an extra meter for your heat pump. Have solar? Another extra meter. Want to charge your electrical car? You guessed right. And you cannot bring your own. Each of those "smart" meters has to be rented from your local supplier at around 20 to 120Eur/year.
  - stefanfisk 10mo ago
    OK, but what about the rest of the price difference? Once the electrical is taken care of it should just be a matter of replacing the furnace and pulling some tubes and wires to the outer unit? You said 40k, but the heat pump itself isn’t even 10k.
    - holowoodman 10mo ago
      I didn't say that, but it is true that in Germany it is extremely expensive, mostly due to installers being greedy. German article, but some translation tool might help: https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/waermepumpen-kosten-foerderung-100.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/verbraucher/waermepumpe...
    - moooo99 10mo ago
      The biggest factor is almost certainly the subsidy for switching to a heatpump. But there are other factors as well. Air to Air heatpumps are uncommon in Germany, we usually install Air to Water ones, which are more complex. Unlike other countries, our heat pumps are usually mounted on a concrete slab and not on the wall. Then there are some norms for quality of the water, etc. they aim to increase the lifespan of the system, but increase upfront costs
      - stefanfisk 10mo ago
        AFAIK we do all of that in Sweden. The 12k I mentioned above is if a large air to water pump suitable for the northernmost of Sweden. It includes a water heater and direct electric heating element for when temperature go below -15. And why do subsidies INCREASE the price in Germany compared to Sweden?
        sokoloff 10mo ago
        In the US, the subsidy is paid only when the heat pump is installed by a certified contractor. Unshockingly, the certified contractors are able to capture the vast majority of the subsidy as additional profit.
bratwurst3000 10mo ago
smart meters are paid by the grid operator and you have to pay maximum 50€ a year for a smartmeter. I honestly dont know where you get your numbers. a friend with a big house and 3 children switched to air water heatpump with floor heating etc and it was 18k€ and half of that paif by the state and the smart meter was mostly free( he pais 25€ a year for it). and this is a hugeeee house. No solar but he is working on it. could you link some proof of this smartmeters I have to pay? Or some calculations from firms it whatever that proof your point.
- lnsru 10mo ago
  Think about cabinet from 1972 for one electricity meter. Now you have one electricity meter for house electricity and second one with dynamic plan for heat pump and spare place prepared for third meter for wallbox. So the new cabinet costs you 3000€ including my work and it’s not seldom, that the house has no grounding rod. With couple small repairs/upgrades it’s 4000€ without VAT. And since everything must be documented I can’t work without invoice. It has nothing to do with smart meters. Some electrical installations are heavily outdated by today’s norms. And norms are obviously written by greedy suppliers of the cabinets and parts for them. Worst thing is that I can’t make any money by selling this stuff. It’s already too expensive for the people. And it will not be cheaper with Paragraf §14a EnWG.

ZeroGravitas 10mo ago

Octopus and a German University did a report on costs. UK heat pumps are half the cost of German installs 14k Vs 28k euros. Theres multiple reasons given: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2025/03/13/heat-pumps-in-germany-nearly-twice-as-expensive-as-in-uk/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2025/03/13/heat-pumps-in-germany... Also, I believe Octopus have nearly halved the UK price since that report by optimising installs.