7 ms·

They should be cheaper than the F150 but Ford can’t figure out how to make batteries cheaply. Evs are a lot less complex, no gas engine, no transmission, no exh

by adrr 10mo ago

They should be cheaper than the F150 but Ford can’t figure out how to make batteries cheaply. Evs are a lot less complex, no gas engine, no transmission, no exhaust systems with hundreds of dollars of precious metal in them. It should be cheaper than a gas equivalent.

smackeyacky 10mo ago
Cheaper? Not sure how. While an ICE engine does have cooling systems and fuelling systems, water pumps and fuel pumps are relatively cheap and simple devices. An EV generally has a battery cooling system along with regenerative braking. EVs have roughly the same mechanical things as an ICE vehicle too, HVAC, suspension, brakes, in car entertainment, heated seats. Lighting. An entire 12v subsystem to power all that stuff as well. A good old ICE car will be cheaper to make than an EV because the powertrain is cheaper when you account for batteries. Even taking into account the gearbox you don’t need in an EV.
- lallysingh 10mo ago
  I don't understand this comparison. An EV's battery cooling system is a cooling system. Regen braking isn't more complicated than an alternator. The rest, yeah. The chemical stacks in the batteries are expensive, and dealer markup was a problem (now they're 47-56k new). But the energy costs! $7-12 for a fill-up on home power overnight instead of $75-85 at the gas station. And maintenance. So little maintenance. For local non-towing fleets these would save a lot.
  - dmitrygr 10mo ago
    > Regen braking isn't more complicated than an alternator. Either disingenuous or ill-informed. one is ~1KW for a few seconds a day, the other is > 100KW of power for dozens of seconds, multiple dozens of times a day. completely engineering
  - kakacik 10mo ago
    Only if you have a home or some other super convenient always available spot. I don't and EVs are non-existing to me for another decade at least, simply too much hassle even if ignoring all other downsides (I don't buy new but mildly used for 25-30% of price of new which for ICE means 95% of the car, I do sometimes family 1500km drives like another one in 2 days - PITA with overcrowded electric cars, in cold which is normal here they become fraction of their capacity and drain battery continuously when parked and so on). Its future but its coming/will come at very different time for various folks
- HankB99 10mo ago
  > A good old ICE car will be cheaper to make than an EV How much of that is the result of the relatively maturity of the technology? We've been continuously improving ICE based transportation for well over a hundred years. It's been a lot shorter for electric vehicles. I suspect that there are bigger strides to make with electrics that may eventually turn that around.
  - echelon 10mo ago
    > I suspect that there are bigger strides to make with electrics that may eventually turn that around. After many more billions are spent. Is the American consumer going to eat that cost? The government clearly lost its appetite as it isn't subsidizing EVs anymore. The US has cheap fuel and it isn't a strategic issue to develop EVs except to keep US auto internationally competitive. US consumers are still really into big SUVs and trucks and almost all of the models are ICE instead of EVs. The EV manufacturers don't really fit the shape of the American consumer that they haven't already sold to. China jumped on EVs because they wanted to start an automotive sector for (1) heavy industry, (2) adjacency to national defense, (3) strong new domestic and export market they could corner, (4) it's adjacent to their other manufacturing industries. Critically, they had a deep reservoir of Chinese citizens who were first time car buyers that they could nudge into buying domestic auto. No other nation on earth has the outsized advantage of having such a deep bench of new customers to subsidize a new industry. The stars aligned for China. America has neither the interest nor the capital to chase EVs or force them down American consumer throats.
    - re-thc 10mo ago
      > America has neither the interest nor the capital to chase EVs or force them down American consumer throats. Only if you see the market continue to be dominated by human drivers. We are potentially moving to self-driving cars like Waymo, Tesla etc then they will get the choice to force what car they like. > The government clearly lost its appetite as it isn't subsidizing EVs anymore. More like "the current" government. It can always change.
      - 10mo ago
- adrr 10mo ago
  China EVs are cheaper than ICE cars. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/why-evs-are-now-cheaper-than-gas-cars-in-china/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.visualcapitalist.com/why-evs-are-now-cheaper-tha...
  - dpark 10mo ago
    Sounds like the batteries are worse in China. How does that affect the range?
    - Qwertious 10mo ago
      They're not worse, China has (arguably) the best batteries in the world. NMC and LFP (of the same cost) are about even, but pricier NMC packs can add maybe 10% more range for the same weight. Which is why most EV companies offer a "long-range version" that's just the same car with an NMC pack swapped in. It's mostly an irrelevant gimmick. The truth is that range isn't limited by batteries, it's limited by weight and cost - a bigger battery weighs more, which means the car (frame) needs to support more weight, which means the car (frame) costs more. Most EVs have a range of ~300 miles (~500KM) and any battery gains don't go into extending the range, they go into reducing the weight (and therefore cost) of the car. Lighter frame, fewer battery cells. Because most people don't care past 300miles (500KM). Not enough to pay an extra $5k, at least.
      - dpark 10mo ago
        Thank you. That's interesting. The infographic calls them cheaper which I assumed (incorrectly?) meant worse. 10% does seem gimmicky, though I am seeing claims on a number of sites that NMC is around 50% better per unit of weight (but way worse for longevity), so I don't know what to think.
  - philipallstar 10mo ago
    China subsidises electric car companies to the tune of billions of dollars[0], as well as providing some tax breaks, so that's not a useful comparison. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-signals-it-will-pull-plug-subsidies-evs-with-five-year-plan-exclusion-2025-10-29 https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-...
al_borland 10mo ago
This isn’t a Ford problem, it’s a problem for the whole industry. EVs won’t get cheaper until battery tech evolves.
- fragmede 10mo ago
  the reason we know American car makers other than Tesla aren't serious about electric cars is that they haven't been making battery factories.
  - al_borland 10mo ago
    GM partnered with Samsung for one[0]. Of course now they just announced layoffs at the EV plant[1], because most people still don’t want electrics cars. The investment needs to be tied to demand. If not, it’s just a lot of wasted money. It seems they’d be better off waiting for better/cheaper battery tech, so they can build out those factories and make cheaper EVs that people might actually buy at scale. Right now the market still feels niche. [0] https://insideevs.com/news/731721/gm-samsung-sdi-indiana-ev-battery-factory-official-delay/ https://insideevs.com/news/731721/gm-samsung-sdi-indiana-ev-... [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/general-motors-permanent-layoffs-factory-zero-detroit/ https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/general-motors-permanen...
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
bluedino 10mo ago
They're also adding self driving and all kinds of fancy options
hamdingers 10mo ago
They're already pretty sparse, the only way to make it cheaper would be to ship it with a smaller battery. That's not an option because Americans are convinced they'll be left stranded if their vehicle isn't capable of driving 300+ miles at a moment's notice.

by adrr 10mo ago

smackeyacky 10mo ago

Cheaper? Not sure how. While an ICE engine does have cooling systems and fuelling systems, water pumps and fuel pumps are relatively cheap and simple devices. An EV generally has a battery cooling system along with regenerative braking. EVs have roughly the same mechanical things as an ICE vehicle too, HVAC, suspension, brakes, in car entertainment, heated seats. Lighting. An entire 12v subsystem to power all that stuff as well. A good old ICE car will be cheaper to make than an EV because the powertrain is cheaper when you account for batteries. Even taking into account the gearbox you don’t need in an EV.

lallysingh 10mo ago
I don't understand this comparison. An EV's battery cooling system is a cooling system. Regen braking isn't more complicated than an alternator. The rest, yeah. The chemical stacks in the batteries are expensive, and dealer markup was a problem (now they're 47-56k new). But the energy costs! $7-12 for a fill-up on home power overnight instead of $75-85 at the gas station. And maintenance. So little maintenance. For local non-towing fleets these would save a lot.
- dmitrygr 10mo ago
  > Regen braking isn't more complicated than an alternator. Either disingenuous or ill-informed. one is ~1KW for a few seconds a day, the other is > 100KW of power for dozens of seconds, multiple dozens of times a day. completely engineering
- kakacik 10mo ago
  Only if you have a home or some other super convenient always available spot. I don't and EVs are non-existing to me for another decade at least, simply too much hassle even if ignoring all other downsides (I don't buy new but mildly used for 25-30% of price of new which for ICE means 95% of the car, I do sometimes family 1500km drives like another one in 2 days - PITA with overcrowded electric cars, in cold which is normal here they become fraction of their capacity and drain battery continuously when parked and so on). Its future but its coming/will come at very different time for various folks
HankB99 10mo ago
> A good old ICE car will be cheaper to make than an EV How much of that is the result of the relatively maturity of the technology? We've been continuously improving ICE based transportation for well over a hundred years. It's been a lot shorter for electric vehicles. I suspect that there are bigger strides to make with electrics that may eventually turn that around.
- echelon 10mo ago
  > I suspect that there are bigger strides to make with electrics that may eventually turn that around. After many more billions are spent. Is the American consumer going to eat that cost? The government clearly lost its appetite as it isn't subsidizing EVs anymore. The US has cheap fuel and it isn't a strategic issue to develop EVs except to keep US auto internationally competitive. US consumers are still really into big SUVs and trucks and almost all of the models are ICE instead of EVs. The EV manufacturers don't really fit the shape of the American consumer that they haven't already sold to. China jumped on EVs because they wanted to start an automotive sector for (1) heavy industry, (2) adjacency to national defense, (3) strong new domestic and export market they could corner, (4) it's adjacent to their other manufacturing industries. Critically, they had a deep reservoir of Chinese citizens who were first time car buyers that they could nudge into buying domestic auto. No other nation on earth has the outsized advantage of having such a deep bench of new customers to subsidize a new industry. The stars aligned for China. America has neither the interest nor the capital to chase EVs or force them down American consumer throats.
  - re-thc 10mo ago
    > America has neither the interest nor the capital to chase EVs or force them down American consumer throats. Only if you see the market continue to be dominated by human drivers. We are potentially moving to self-driving cars like Waymo, Tesla etc then they will get the choice to force what car they like. > The government clearly lost its appetite as it isn't subsidizing EVs anymore. More like "the current" government. It can always change.
    - 10mo ago
adrr 10mo ago
China EVs are cheaper than ICE cars. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/why-evs-are-now-cheaper-than-gas-cars-in-china/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.visualcapitalist.com/why-evs-are-now-cheaper-tha...
- dpark 10mo ago
  Sounds like the batteries are worse in China. How does that affect the range?
  - Qwertious 10mo ago
    They're not worse, China has (arguably) the best batteries in the world. NMC and LFP (of the same cost) are about even, but pricier NMC packs can add maybe 10% more range for the same weight. Which is why most EV companies offer a "long-range version" that's just the same car with an NMC pack swapped in. It's mostly an irrelevant gimmick. The truth is that range isn't limited by batteries, it's limited by weight and cost - a bigger battery weighs more, which means the car (frame) needs to support more weight, which means the car (frame) costs more. Most EVs have a range of ~300 miles (~500KM) and any battery gains don't go into extending the range, they go into reducing the weight (and therefore cost) of the car. Lighter frame, fewer battery cells. Because most people don't care past 300miles (500KM). Not enough to pay an extra $5k, at least.
    - dpark 10mo ago
      Thank you. That's interesting. The infographic calls them cheaper which I assumed (incorrectly?) meant worse. 10% does seem gimmicky, though I am seeing claims on a number of sites that NMC is around 50% better per unit of weight (but way worse for longevity), so I don't know what to think.
- philipallstar 10mo ago
  China subsidises electric car companies to the tune of billions of dollars[0], as well as providing some tax breaks, so that's not a useful comparison. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-signals-it-will-pull-plug-subsidies-evs-with-five-year-plan-exclusion-2025-10-29 https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-...

al_borland 10mo ago

This isn’t a Ford problem, it’s a problem for the whole industry. EVs won’t get cheaper until battery tech evolves.

fragmede 10mo ago
the reason we know American car makers other than Tesla aren't serious about electric cars is that they haven't been making battery factories.
- al_borland 10mo ago
  GM partnered with Samsung for one[0]. Of course now they just announced layoffs at the EV plant[1], because most people still don’t want electrics cars. The investment needs to be tied to demand. If not, it’s just a lot of wasted money. It seems they’d be better off waiting for better/cheaper battery tech, so they can build out those factories and make cheaper EVs that people might actually buy at scale. Right now the market still feels niche. [0] https://insideevs.com/news/731721/gm-samsung-sdi-indiana-ev-battery-factory-official-delay/ https://insideevs.com/news/731721/gm-samsung-sdi-indiana-ev-... [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/general-motors-permanent-layoffs-factory-zero-detroit/ https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/general-motors-permanen...

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

bluedino 10mo ago

They're also adding self driving and all kinds of fancy options

hamdingers 10mo ago

They're already pretty sparse, the only way to make it cheaper would be to ship it with a smaller battery. That's not an option because Americans are convinced they'll be left stranded if their vehicle isn't capable of driving 300+ miles at a moment's notice.