5 ms·

> That when you can open a basic X11 application like xeyes or xterm, you can open any X11 application. I have never heard of that. Even if it was true (and so

> That when you can open a basic X11 application like xeyes or xterm, you can open any X11 application. I have never heard of that. Even if it was true (and sounds like another security issue); X11 is almost gone for most people. Why should anyone care?

ambicapter 10mo ago
I'm not sure why you would need to have "heard of that". If I was getting Linux to work on my computer as many people have, and got xeyes or xterm to work, I would expect other X11 apps to work as well.
shevy-java 10mo ago
It is not true that X11 is gone. I use it. Many other people use it too. Can you show where you got the impression that "X11 is gone"?
- esseph 10mo ago
  X11 has been replaced by Wayland as the default on the vast majority of workstations. Servers wouldn't have it anyway. It's "gone" for roughly 80% of the people using Linux on the desktop. (It's often still installable, it's just no longer the default and has been marked as deprecated / unmaintained.)
  - amelius 10mo ago
    I often read the advice that if something does not work on Linux, then switch from Wayland to X11. Also, 20% is quite a big userbase. What you are saying is like saying that Firefox is "gone" because "percentage". Trust me, X11 is not gone. (written from a browser that runs in a VNC session that uses the X11 protocol under the hood)
    - bitwize 10mo ago
      X is deprecated. Its maintainers do not want to maintain it. They want you to use Wayland instead. The major DEs have removed their X code paths, or will in the next year. The toolkits will follow suit. X is a dead end for new and non-legacy software.
      - oblio 10mo ago
        It's a dead end that allows me to have HiDPI (aka a 4k display) on Ubuntu 24.04 and use the VMWare GUI and OnlyOffice. Wayland was launched 18 years ago and it still can't handle mainstream apps in common scenarios.
        oblio 10mo ago
        Downvote all you want, I'm telling you what I see. I had to fall back to X...
    - esseph 10mo ago
      "I often read the advice that if something does not work on Chrome in the US Govt, try IE6." - This was still true as of last year. "Trust me, IE6 is not gone" - me
  - bigstrat2003 10mo ago
    Are there hard numbers to back up the 80% thing? I don't know one way or the other, I'm just skeptical because I still have applications which don't work correctly under Wayland (Discord), and if I have such problems it wouldn't surprise me if others do too.
    - esseph 10mo ago
      It's the default for most of the parent/child distros. Wayland Only (default, installed): * Fedora * Ubuntu * openSUSE * Arch Linux * Pop!_OS Wayland (default) * Debian * SUSE I use Discord on Wayland every day and have for at least 3 years. Both AMD 9060 and NVIDIA 4060 (and an AMD RX 580). The distro you use can have a huge impact on your OOTB experience.
      - tmtvl 10mo ago
        > * Arch Linux Arch doesn't even install a kernel by default, in which possible way does it default to Wayland?
        esseph 10mo ago
        Oops! Sorry I was working in a sheet that had the variants listed and I must have shifted a cell! Arch clearly doesn't have any "defaults" there. Manjaro is on X11. SteamOS on Steam Deck does however use Wayland.
  - m4rtink 10mo ago
    The waypipe toole comes quite close to X forwarding on Wayland. :-)
  - chasil 10mo ago
    I am using OpenBSD on an x86-64 desktop, and X is still very much the supported graphics environment. That said, there is interest in Wayland in these circles. https://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsdcon2023-matthieu-wayland-openbsd.pdf https://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsdcon2023-matthieu-wayla...
    - 0x457 10mo ago
      Supported by whom? Xorg, the server, no longer maintained. Also, OpenBSD users already a tiny fraction of users...if every single OpenBSD desktop switches to Linux and Wayland, not a single metric will change significantly.
      - chasil 10mo ago
        OpenBSD also maintains OpenSSH, which has enormous market penetration. Their ssh supports the -X and -Y options to run remote X applications. Let me know when those go Wayland-specific and are able to encompass the new protocol. Until then, get comfortable in a small and discardable minority.
        Conan_Kudo 10mo ago
        The `-X` and `-Y` options were a mistake to integrate into `ssh(1)`, it makes an assumption that everybody uses an Athena/X11 type system. That said, you can combine waypipe with ssh to do the same thing (ie. `waypipe ssh` will give you the same effect as `ssh -X`).
        chasil 10mo ago
        Until those options are integrated into OpenSSH itself, Wayland remains in the minority.
        esseph 10mo ago
        I'm not sure this statement makes any sense.
pmontra 10mo ago
It is almost gone for me too, except that I can't adjust brightness on my laptop with Wayland. I can with X11. It's a long story but that's the TL;DR of it. So until all of that almost goes away, it's full X11 at least for some people like me.
- esseph 10mo ago
  I had the same problem until an updated fixed it
  - amelius 10mo ago
    There are still many of those kinds of issues left.
    - foresto 10mo ago
      I was surprised to learn that Wayland still doesn't offer control of keyboard LEDs like Scroll Lock, so unprivileged programs that use those LEDs cannot be ported to Wayland. Even if I didn't depend on such a program myself, I would find it strange that Wayland gives the compositor responsibility for only part of the keyboard: its keys, but not its indicator lights.
      - pmontra 10mo ago
        After all they started by locking down everything and then they are creating all the openings that real world programs need to do what people use computers for. It's probably a better approach that starting with everything open and attempting to lock down, but it takes a long time and some of us will be locked out by some hardware / software mismatch. In my case it seems that Noveau can't talk properly with the backlight control of my card. Neither X11 can with those new kernel and driver but at least it can use gamma correction to simulate a darker screen. Wayland does not have gamma correction or it doesn't work as it should, I can't remember.
mx7zysuj4xew 10mo ago
Listen in most discussions bringing up security is a good way for you to shut the conversation down, but in the case of IPC anyone who cares enough will be knowledgeable enough to see it for the red herring it is

ambicapter 10mo ago

I'm not sure why you would need to have "heard of that". If I was getting Linux to work on my computer as many people have, and got xeyes or xterm to work, I would expect other X11 apps to work as well.

shevy-java 10mo ago

It is not true that X11 is gone. I use it. Many other people use it too. Can you show where you got the impression that "X11 is gone"?

esseph 10mo ago
X11 has been replaced by Wayland as the default on the vast majority of workstations. Servers wouldn't have it anyway. It's "gone" for roughly 80% of the people using Linux on the desktop. (It's often still installable, it's just no longer the default and has been marked as deprecated / unmaintained.)
- amelius 10mo ago
  I often read the advice that if something does not work on Linux, then switch from Wayland to X11. Also, 20% is quite a big userbase. What you are saying is like saying that Firefox is "gone" because "percentage". Trust me, X11 is not gone. (written from a browser that runs in a VNC session that uses the X11 protocol under the hood)
  - bitwize 10mo ago
    X is deprecated. Its maintainers do not want to maintain it. They want you to use Wayland instead. The major DEs have removed their X code paths, or will in the next year. The toolkits will follow suit. X is a dead end for new and non-legacy software.
    - oblio 10mo ago
      It's a dead end that allows me to have HiDPI (aka a 4k display) on Ubuntu 24.04 and use the VMWare GUI and OnlyOffice. Wayland was launched 18 years ago and it still can't handle mainstream apps in common scenarios.
      - oblio 10mo ago
        Downvote all you want, I'm telling you what I see. I had to fall back to X...
  - esseph 10mo ago
    "I often read the advice that if something does not work on Chrome in the US Govt, try IE6." - This was still true as of last year. "Trust me, IE6 is not gone" - me
- bigstrat2003 10mo ago
  Are there hard numbers to back up the 80% thing? I don't know one way or the other, I'm just skeptical because I still have applications which don't work correctly under Wayland (Discord), and if I have such problems it wouldn't surprise me if others do too.
  - esseph 10mo ago
    It's the default for most of the parent/child distros. Wayland Only (default, installed): * Fedora * Ubuntu * openSUSE * Arch Linux * Pop!_OS Wayland (default) * Debian * SUSE I use Discord on Wayland every day and have for at least 3 years. Both AMD 9060 and NVIDIA 4060 (and an AMD RX 580). The distro you use can have a huge impact on your OOTB experience.
    - tmtvl 10mo ago
      > * Arch Linux Arch doesn't even install a kernel by default, in which possible way does it default to Wayland?
      - esseph 10mo ago
        Oops! Sorry I was working in a sheet that had the variants listed and I must have shifted a cell! Arch clearly doesn't have any "defaults" there. Manjaro is on X11. SteamOS on Steam Deck does however use Wayland.
- m4rtink 10mo ago
  The waypipe toole comes quite close to X forwarding on Wayland. :-)
- chasil 10mo ago
  I am using OpenBSD on an x86-64 desktop, and X is still very much the supported graphics environment. That said, there is interest in Wayland in these circles. https://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsdcon2023-matthieu-wayland-openbsd.pdf https://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsdcon2023-matthieu-wayla...
  - 0x457 10mo ago
    Supported by whom? Xorg, the server, no longer maintained. Also, OpenBSD users already a tiny fraction of users...if every single OpenBSD desktop switches to Linux and Wayland, not a single metric will change significantly.
    - chasil 10mo ago
      OpenBSD also maintains OpenSSH, which has enormous market penetration. Their ssh supports the -X and -Y options to run remote X applications. Let me know when those go Wayland-specific and are able to encompass the new protocol. Until then, get comfortable in a small and discardable minority.
      - Conan_Kudo 10mo ago
        The `-X` and `-Y` options were a mistake to integrate into `ssh(1)`, it makes an assumption that everybody uses an Athena/X11 type system. That said, you can combine waypipe with ssh to do the same thing (ie. `waypipe ssh` will give you the same effect as `ssh -X`).
        chasil 10mo ago
        Until those options are integrated into OpenSSH itself, Wayland remains in the minority.
        esseph 10mo ago
        I'm not sure this statement makes any sense.

pmontra 10mo ago

It is almost gone for me too, except that I can't adjust brightness on my laptop with Wayland. I can with X11. It's a long story but that's the TL;DR of it. So until all of that almost goes away, it's full X11 at least for some people like me.

esseph 10mo ago
I had the same problem until an updated fixed it
- amelius 10mo ago
  There are still many of those kinds of issues left.
  - foresto 10mo ago
    I was surprised to learn that Wayland still doesn't offer control of keyboard LEDs like Scroll Lock, so unprivileged programs that use those LEDs cannot be ported to Wayland. Even if I didn't depend on such a program myself, I would find it strange that Wayland gives the compositor responsibility for only part of the keyboard: its keys, but not its indicator lights.
    - pmontra 10mo ago
      After all they started by locking down everything and then they are creating all the openings that real world programs need to do what people use computers for. It's probably a better approach that starting with everything open and attempting to lock down, but it takes a long time and some of us will be locked out by some hardware / software mismatch. In my case it seems that Noveau can't talk properly with the backlight control of my card. Neither X11 can with those new kernel and driver but at least it can use gamma correction to simulate a darker screen. Wayland does not have gamma correction or it doesn't work as it should, I can't remember.

mx7zysuj4xew 10mo ago

Listen in most discussions bringing up security is a good way for you to shut the conversation down, but in the case of IPC anyone who cares enough will be knowledgeable enough to see it for the red herring it is