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Whatever else they are, Israel is a democracy.

by jimbokun 11mo ago

GordonS 11mo ago
Can an apartheid state really be considered a democracy?
- judah 11mo ago
  Israel has 2 million Arab citizens with full voting rights, free education, free healthcare, and representation in the Knesset.
  - School-Cotton 11mo ago
    Sure, within the Green Line, the minority of Arabs who managed to avoid being expelled in 1948 are now citizens with equal legal rights, at least in theory. So it’s reasonable to argue that there is no apartheid regime there. But that has nothing to do with the West Bank, which is where the accusation of apartheid is most credible. This is, of course, why pro-Israel advocates always attempt to redirect the conversation to focus specifically on the Arab citizens of Israel within the Green Line when these matters are discussed.
    - judah 11mo ago
      Thank you for acknowledging that 2 million Arabs live in Israel with full citizenship and rights. That undermines the claim that Israel is an apartheid state. As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah, not Israel. Israel provides for its own citizens -- regardless of ethnicity -- but it's not responsible for the citizens of foreign territories and their governments. Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations.
      - School-Cotton 11mo ago
        > As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah You've repeated this claim a few times in the thread, so sorry if this is repetitive, but just to recap: 1. Fatah is not allowed to build an airport in Palestinian territory -- the Israeli military controls its airspace. 2. Fatah is not able to determine who comes in and out of the territory -- Israel controls both its border with Israel (which I suppose is reasonable) and its border with Jordan (which is not). 3. Fatah does not control the population registry or decide who can receive a Palestinian ID card -- Israel does. 4. Fatah does not have a monopoly over the use of military force in the West Bank -- the Israeli military can (and does) operate wherever it wants to within the territory. 5. Fatah does not control who can move where within the West Bank -- there are many Israeli-only settlements and Israeli-only roads, with access controlled by the Israeli military and police. Even when moving between Palestinian areas, residents are often subject to Israeli checkpoints (with long lines). Is Fatah allowed to control some civil matters, e.g. the education system? Sure. I will let others reading this be the judge of whether this constitutes "Fatah control" or "Israeli control". To me, the answer is clear. > Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations. Obviously. Nobody is complaining, for example, that Israel doesn't provide services to Iranians or Syrians or Yemenis. Those are legitimately foreign countries that Israel doesn't control. ... Taking a look at the rest of the thread, it seems that, having had no success justifying your ludicrous position that "Israel doesn't control the West Bank", you've instead pivoted to explaining how the fact that they control it is Palestinians' fault, or at least justifiable due to Israel's legitimate interest in preventing terrorism. Well, which is it? Does Fatah control the West Bank, or does Israel control it but the occupation is justified? There's a lot I could say about this topic, too, but I don't think I'll bother. Galloping from one canned talking point to the next faster than the points can be refuted is not a good-faith debating style and a waste of time to engage with.
School-Cotton 11mo ago
The State of Israel controls certain territory which it administers democratically. It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law. Conveniently, the latter territory is considered “not part of Israel” despite having been fully controlled by the state for many decades. So, is Israel a democracy? I guess that depends on your definition of “democracy”, and also your definition of “Israel”.
- judah 11mo ago
  > "It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law." This is simply not true. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel, a full 21% of Israel's population. Another 4% are Bedouin.
  - School-Cotton 11mo ago
    Those live in the territory that is administered democratically, i.e., not the West Bank. I’m not sure if you even read my comment, but you certainly didn’t understand it.
    - judah 11mo ago
      Israel doesn't administer the West Bank; Fatah does.
      - School-Cotton 11mo ago
        OK, tell me how I can visit Ramallah without passing through Israeli checkpoints. I’m willing to go through the border with Jordan, or fly into Ramallah airport, and pass through Fatah customs. Surely that should be possible if Israel doesn’t administer the territory?
        judah 11mo ago
slowturtle 11mo ago
Israel is not a democracy. You cannot call yourself a democracy when 5 million people live under your military occupation and are subject to military law without any political representation. An apartheid state cannot be a democracy.

Whatever else they are, Israel is a democracy.

GordonS 11mo ago

Can an apartheid state really be considered a democracy?

judah 11mo ago
Israel has 2 million Arab citizens with full voting rights, free education, free healthcare, and representation in the Knesset.
- School-Cotton 11mo ago
  Sure, within the Green Line, the minority of Arabs who managed to avoid being expelled in 1948 are now citizens with equal legal rights, at least in theory. So it’s reasonable to argue that there is no apartheid regime there. But that has nothing to do with the West Bank, which is where the accusation of apartheid is most credible. This is, of course, why pro-Israel advocates always attempt to redirect the conversation to focus specifically on the Arab citizens of Israel within the Green Line when these matters are discussed.
  - judah 11mo ago
    Thank you for acknowledging that 2 million Arabs live in Israel with full citizenship and rights. That undermines the claim that Israel is an apartheid state. As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah, not Israel. Israel provides for its own citizens -- regardless of ethnicity -- but it's not responsible for the citizens of foreign territories and their governments. Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations.
    - School-Cotton 11mo ago
      > As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah You've repeated this claim a few times in the thread, so sorry if this is repetitive, but just to recap: 1. Fatah is not allowed to build an airport in Palestinian territory -- the Israeli military controls its airspace. 2. Fatah is not able to determine who comes in and out of the territory -- Israel controls both its border with Israel (which I suppose is reasonable) and its border with Jordan (which is not). 3. Fatah does not control the population registry or decide who can receive a Palestinian ID card -- Israel does. 4. Fatah does not have a monopoly over the use of military force in the West Bank -- the Israeli military can (and does) operate wherever it wants to within the territory. 5. Fatah does not control who can move where within the West Bank -- there are many Israeli-only settlements and Israeli-only roads, with access controlled by the Israeli military and police. Even when moving between Palestinian areas, residents are often subject to Israeli checkpoints (with long lines). Is Fatah allowed to control some civil matters, e.g. the education system? Sure. I will let others reading this be the judge of whether this constitutes "Fatah control" or "Israeli control". To me, the answer is clear. > Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations. Obviously. Nobody is complaining, for example, that Israel doesn't provide services to Iranians or Syrians or Yemenis. Those are legitimately foreign countries that Israel doesn't control. ... Taking a look at the rest of the thread, it seems that, having had no success justifying your ludicrous position that "Israel doesn't control the West Bank", you've instead pivoted to explaining how the fact that they control it is Palestinians' fault, or at least justifiable due to Israel's legitimate interest in preventing terrorism. Well, which is it? Does Fatah control the West Bank, or does Israel control it but the occupation is justified? There's a lot I could say about this topic, too, but I don't think I'll bother. Galloping from one canned talking point to the next faster than the points can be refuted is not a good-faith debating style and a waste of time to engage with.

School-Cotton 11mo ago

The State of Israel controls certain territory which it administers democratically. It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law. Conveniently, the latter territory is considered “not part of Israel” despite having been fully controlled by the state for many decades. So, is Israel a democracy? I guess that depends on your definition of “democracy”, and also your definition of “Israel”.

judah 11mo ago
> "It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law." This is simply not true. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel, a full 21% of Israel's population. Another 4% are Bedouin.
- School-Cotton 11mo ago
  Those live in the territory that is administered democratically, i.e., not the West Bank. I’m not sure if you even read my comment, but you certainly didn’t understand it.
  - judah 11mo ago
    Israel doesn't administer the West Bank; Fatah does.
    - School-Cotton 11mo ago
      OK, tell me how I can visit Ramallah without passing through Israeli checkpoints. I’m willing to go through the border with Jordan, or fly into Ramallah airport, and pass through Fatah customs. Surely that should be possible if Israel doesn’t administer the territory?
      - judah 11mo ago

slowturtle 11mo ago

Israel is not a democracy. You cannot call yourself a democracy when 5 million people live under your military occupation and are subject to military law without any political representation. An apartheid state cannot be a democracy.