6 ms·

Just remember when the press reports on foreign affairs, “pro democracy” means “pro capitalism, pro west” we don’t gaf about democracy or self determination. Th

by tehjoker 11mo ago

Just remember when the press reports on foreign affairs, “pro democracy” means “pro capitalism, pro west” we don’t gaf about democracy or self determination. That’s why we ally with saudi arabia, israel, and invaded iraq.

jimbokun 11mo ago
Whatever else they are, Israel is a democracy.
- GordonS 11mo ago
  Can an apartheid state really be considered a democracy?
  - judah 11mo ago
    Israel has 2 million Arab citizens with full voting rights, free education, free healthcare, and representation in the Knesset.
    - School-Cotton 11mo ago
      Sure, within the Green Line, the minority of Arabs who managed to avoid being expelled in 1948 are now citizens with equal legal rights, at least in theory. So it’s reasonable to argue that there is no apartheid regime there. But that has nothing to do with the West Bank, which is where the accusation of apartheid is most credible. This is, of course, why pro-Israel advocates always attempt to redirect the conversation to focus specifically on the Arab citizens of Israel within the Green Line when these matters are discussed.
      - judah 11mo ago
        Thank you for acknowledging that 2 million Arabs live in Israel with full citizenship and rights. That undermines the claim that Israel is an apartheid state. As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah, not Israel. Israel provides for its own citizens -- regardless of ethnicity -- but it's not responsible for the citizens of foreign territories and their governments. Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations.
        School-Cotton 11mo ago
        > As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah You've repeated this claim a few times in the thread, so sorry if this is repetitive, but just to recap: 1. Fatah is not allowed to build an airport in Palestinian territory -- the Israeli military controls its airspace. 2. Fatah is not able to determine who comes in and out of the territory -- Israel controls both its border with Israel (which I suppose is reasonable) and its border with Jordan (which is not). 3. Fatah does not control the population registry or decide who can receive a Palestinian ID card -- Israel does. 4. Fatah does not have a monopoly over the use of military force in the West Bank -- the Israeli military can (and does) operate wherever it wants to within the territory. 5. Fatah does not control who can move where within the West Bank -- there are many Israeli-only settlements and Israeli-only roads, with access controlled by the Israeli military and police. Even when moving between Palestinian areas, residents are often subject to Israeli checkpoints (with long lines). Is Fatah allowed to control some civil matters, e.g. the education system? Sure. I will let others reading this be the judge of whether this constitutes "Fatah control" or "Israeli control". To me, the answer is clear. > Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations. Obviously. Nobody is complaining, for example, that Israel doesn't provide services to Iranians or Syrians or Yemenis. Those are legitimately foreign countries that Israel doesn't control. ... Taking a look at the rest of the thread, it seems that, having had no success justifying your ludicrous position that "Israel doesn't control the West Bank", you've instead pivoted to explaining how the fact that they control it is Palestinians' fault, or at least justifiable due to Israel's legitimate interest in preventing terrorism. Well, which is it? Does Fatah control the West Bank, or does Israel control it but the occupation is justified? There's a lot I could say about this topic, too, but I don't think I'll bother. Galloping from one canned talking point to the next faster than the points can be refuted is not a good-faith debating style and a waste of time to engage with.
- School-Cotton 11mo ago
  The State of Israel controls certain territory which it administers democratically. It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law. Conveniently, the latter territory is considered “not part of Israel” despite having been fully controlled by the state for many decades. So, is Israel a democracy? I guess that depends on your definition of “democracy”, and also your definition of “Israel”.
  - judah 11mo ago
    > "It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law." This is simply not true. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel, a full 21% of Israel's population. Another 4% are Bedouin.
    - School-Cotton 11mo ago
      Those live in the territory that is administered democratically, i.e., not the West Bank. I’m not sure if you even read my comment, but you certainly didn’t understand it.
      - judah 11mo ago
        Israel doesn't administer the West Bank; Fatah does.
        School-Cotton 11mo ago
        OK, tell me how I can visit Ramallah without passing through Israeli checkpoints. I’m willing to go through the border with Jordan, or fly into Ramallah airport, and pass through Fatah customs. Surely that should be possible if Israel doesn’t administer the territory?
        judah 11mo ago
- slowturtle 11mo ago
  Israel is not a democracy. You cannot call yourself a democracy when 5 million people live under your military occupation and are subject to military law without any political representation. An apartheid state cannot be a democracy.
sp4cec0wb0y 11mo ago
I understand what you are trying to say and as much as I disagree with Israel, it is a democracy. We invaded Iraq for terrible reasons but it wasn't a "democracy" we were invading.
- tehjoker 11mo ago
  With regards to Israel, how can you have a democracy when more than half the population in palestine is under military rule and there is an addition to the basic law as of 2018 that israel is a jewish state and settlement is explicitly encouraged? It is an explicit apartheid regime committing a fascist genocide in the service of expansion. Democracy for whom? Democracy to what end? With respect to Iraq, it is true there was not a democracy there, but we did violate their self determination and installing an american viceroy is the opposite of democracy. Iraq had a welfare state that helped many citizens even if there were many features of the government I despise, but we destroyed it all and turned it into an experimental playground for American privatization efforts.
  - derektank 11mo ago
    Iraq today is a self-governing parliamentary democracy and the US has had no direct say in their governance since the first parliament was seated in 2006. That the interim government installed by the US was not democratically elected doesn’t say all that much, especially given the country was in a state of civil war immediately following the removal of Saddam from power.
    - mikaTheThird 11mo ago
      Democracy is a tool, and any tool can be used for good and bad. By good, that means for us full equlity, including self determination. As an Assyrians, my nation suffered greatly under the old and the new regime, and will most certainly be eradicated. Democracy didn't stop my assyrians from being taught Arabs and Kurds came to civilize, it didn't stop endless settlement of Arabs and Kurds, it certainty didn't stop the death threats, and most certianly didn't give us a voice that we could use, and it didn't help my nation from being forced to flee even in times of peace(like today). After all my nation never chose to be part of said Iraq(or Turkey) and by extension it didn't chose to be part of said democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_independence_movement
hearsathought 11mo ago
"pro-democracy" is code for agent/operative of a colonial power. It's why so many hong kong pro-"democracy" operatives fled to britain, germany, us, etc. And it's also why so may pro-"democracy" operatives end up in countries we have problems with. No pro-"democracy" operatives in allied countries like saudi arabia, qatar, etc. Strange.

jimbokun 11mo ago

Whatever else they are, Israel is a democracy.

GordonS 11mo ago
Can an apartheid state really be considered a democracy?
- judah 11mo ago
  Israel has 2 million Arab citizens with full voting rights, free education, free healthcare, and representation in the Knesset.
  - School-Cotton 11mo ago
    Sure, within the Green Line, the minority of Arabs who managed to avoid being expelled in 1948 are now citizens with equal legal rights, at least in theory. So it’s reasonable to argue that there is no apartheid regime there. But that has nothing to do with the West Bank, which is where the accusation of apartheid is most credible. This is, of course, why pro-Israel advocates always attempt to redirect the conversation to focus specifically on the Arab citizens of Israel within the Green Line when these matters are discussed.
    - judah 11mo ago
      Thank you for acknowledging that 2 million Arabs live in Israel with full citizenship and rights. That undermines the claim that Israel is an apartheid state. As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah, not Israel. Israel provides for its own citizens -- regardless of ethnicity -- but it's not responsible for the citizens of foreign territories and their governments. Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations.
      - School-Cotton 11mo ago
        > As for the West Bank, it's ruled by Fatah You've repeated this claim a few times in the thread, so sorry if this is repetitive, but just to recap: 1. Fatah is not allowed to build an airport in Palestinian territory -- the Israeli military controls its airspace. 2. Fatah is not able to determine who comes in and out of the territory -- Israel controls both its border with Israel (which I suppose is reasonable) and its border with Jordan (which is not). 3. Fatah does not control the population registry or decide who can receive a Palestinian ID card -- Israel does. 4. Fatah does not have a monopoly over the use of military force in the West Bank -- the Israeli military can (and does) operate wherever it wants to within the territory. 5. Fatah does not control who can move where within the West Bank -- there are many Israeli-only settlements and Israeli-only roads, with access controlled by the Israeli military and police. Even when moving between Palestinian areas, residents are often subject to Israeli checkpoints (with long lines). Is Fatah allowed to control some civil matters, e.g. the education system? Sure. I will let others reading this be the judge of whether this constitutes "Fatah control" or "Israeli control". To me, the answer is clear. > Israel is under no obligation to provide services to foreign governments, especially those compromised by antisemitic terrorist organizations. Obviously. Nobody is complaining, for example, that Israel doesn't provide services to Iranians or Syrians or Yemenis. Those are legitimately foreign countries that Israel doesn't control. ... Taking a look at the rest of the thread, it seems that, having had no success justifying your ludicrous position that "Israel doesn't control the West Bank", you've instead pivoted to explaining how the fact that they control it is Palestinians' fault, or at least justifiable due to Israel's legitimate interest in preventing terrorism. Well, which is it? Does Fatah control the West Bank, or does Israel control it but the occupation is justified? There's a lot I could say about this topic, too, but I don't think I'll bother. Galloping from one canned talking point to the next faster than the points can be refuted is not a good-faith debating style and a waste of time to engage with.
School-Cotton 11mo ago
The State of Israel controls certain territory which it administers democratically. It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law. Conveniently, the latter territory is considered “not part of Israel” despite having been fully controlled by the state for many decades. So, is Israel a democracy? I guess that depends on your definition of “democracy”, and also your definition of “Israel”.
- judah 11mo ago
  > "It controls other territory in which only people of a particular ethnic/cultural group are citizens and everyone else is stateless and governed by military law." This is simply not true. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel, a full 21% of Israel's population. Another 4% are Bedouin.
  - School-Cotton 11mo ago
    Those live in the territory that is administered democratically, i.e., not the West Bank. I’m not sure if you even read my comment, but you certainly didn’t understand it.
    - judah 11mo ago
      Israel doesn't administer the West Bank; Fatah does.
      - School-Cotton 11mo ago
        OK, tell me how I can visit Ramallah without passing through Israeli checkpoints. I’m willing to go through the border with Jordan, or fly into Ramallah airport, and pass through Fatah customs. Surely that should be possible if Israel doesn’t administer the territory?
        judah 11mo ago
slowturtle 11mo ago
Israel is not a democracy. You cannot call yourself a democracy when 5 million people live under your military occupation and are subject to military law without any political representation. An apartheid state cannot be a democracy.

sp4cec0wb0y 11mo ago

I understand what you are trying to say and as much as I disagree with Israel, it is a democracy. We invaded Iraq for terrible reasons but it wasn't a "democracy" we were invading.

tehjoker 11mo ago
With regards to Israel, how can you have a democracy when more than half the population in palestine is under military rule and there is an addition to the basic law as of 2018 that israel is a jewish state and settlement is explicitly encouraged? It is an explicit apartheid regime committing a fascist genocide in the service of expansion. Democracy for whom? Democracy to what end? With respect to Iraq, it is true there was not a democracy there, but we did violate their self determination and installing an american viceroy is the opposite of democracy. Iraq had a welfare state that helped many citizens even if there were many features of the government I despise, but we destroyed it all and turned it into an experimental playground for American privatization efforts.
- derektank 11mo ago
  Iraq today is a self-governing parliamentary democracy and the US has had no direct say in their governance since the first parliament was seated in 2006. That the interim government installed by the US was not democratically elected doesn’t say all that much, especially given the country was in a state of civil war immediately following the removal of Saddam from power.
  - mikaTheThird 11mo ago
    Democracy is a tool, and any tool can be used for good and bad. By good, that means for us full equlity, including self determination. As an Assyrians, my nation suffered greatly under the old and the new regime, and will most certainly be eradicated. Democracy didn't stop my assyrians from being taught Arabs and Kurds came to civilize, it didn't stop endless settlement of Arabs and Kurds, it certainty didn't stop the death threats, and most certianly didn't give us a voice that we could use, and it didn't help my nation from being forced to flee even in times of peace(like today). After all my nation never chose to be part of said Iraq(or Turkey) and by extension it didn't chose to be part of said democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_independence_movement

hearsathought 11mo ago

"pro-democracy" is code for agent/operative of a colonial power. It's why so many hong kong pro-"democracy" operatives fled to britain, germany, us, etc. And it's also why so may pro-"democracy" operatives end up in countries we have problems with. No pro-"democracy" operatives in allied countries like saudi arabia, qatar, etc. Strange.