5 ms·

I connect to my residential ISP in the USA via VPN all the time and have never had issues with being blocked for VPN use. Maybe they mean commercial VPN provid

by itake 10mo ago

I connect to my residential ISP in the USA via VPN all the time and have never had issues with being blocked for VPN use. Maybe they mean commercial VPN providers that run on the cloud?

oefrha 10mo ago
[flagged]
- fragmede 10mo ago
  Tailscale is really not that hard to set up. There's an Apple TV app for it, even. And who doesn't have some friend in another state or country that would like an Apple TV?
  - cyberrock 10mo ago
    Obviously not everyone have friends in all of the countries they want to tunnel to (or want to ask them). Otherwise these VPN services wouldn't exist.
  - gruez 10mo ago
    Your friends don't find it uneasy that you can be tunneling illegal activities through their internet connection and have the FBI knocking at their door in a few months?
    - wredcoll 10mo ago
      This word you used... friend... what does it mean to you?
    - sersi 10mo ago
      Exactly, I have friends from other countries. Friends I really like, I would not give a VPN access to my internet connection to most of them. They have to be the perfect intersection of technically competent (so that their computer doesn't get turned into a botnet) and fully trustworthy. I do actually give VPN access to my mother that is not technically competent but I have full access to her computer and locked her down as much as possible
  - positr0n 10mo ago
    I live a thousand miles from another country. No I don't have friends in another country and I don't even know anyone with friends in another country except immigrants or spouses of immigrants.
  - politelemon 10mo ago
    I am concerned that this comment reads like an advert, it's completely unnecessary and out of touch.
    - fragmede 10mo ago
      How is it out of touch? GP comment makes it sound like the technical know to setup a VPN exit node is this crazily esoteric super weird nerdy thing that no one would expect anyone normal to even know about. Installing an Apple TV app onto an Apple TV and mailing it to a friend requires zero command line usage. But no, Tailscale did not pay me for this comment. I do happen to know someone that works there though.
      - devilbunny 10mo ago
        Don't bother with these comments. I made a similar reply to yours a few days ago and while most found it useful, a surprising amount of whataboutism occurred - no, Apple TV hardware isn't common, or no, only old people have them, or no, why would you use an Apple TV when [X] can do it cheaper, or no, why not self-host and not be dependent on Apple and Tailscale? Entirely missing the point that setting up a VPN exit node on your own or someone else's connection is a crazily esoteric super weird nerdy thing outside of communities like HN, and Tailscale on an Apple TV box will not only work but automatically update itself with no intervention on your part, and that the person whose house it is in needs extremely minimal technical skill to do what you tell them to over the phone.
        fragmede 10mo ago
        Thanks. With people in their own independent bubbles it's hard to tell, but with a guess at 25 million Apple TVs out there in the wild, I didn't think it was that esoteric, but what do I know. Thanks again, devilbunny
        devilbunny 10mo ago
        I'd say that even the idea that you could VPN into your own network and forward all traffic through it is pretty far from the mainstream. Let alone how to actually do it. Most people think of VPN as a way to avoid porn blocks or getting tagged for piracy. But, as you and I both noted, the technical know-how for setting up Tailscale is not that high, and for using it is almost nil. Turn it on, pick an exit node, go. Combine that with a device that's intended as a consumer appliance that makes maintenance a non-issue, and you have a very good solution for the family geek. You're very welcome.
- delusional 10mo ago
  The exhausting "well actually" masks a corrosive argument, that if you can't enforce the rules in a rigid and rigorous fashion, the rule is fiat. It's not that he doesn't know the difference. He's making the argument that since there's no _technical_ difference there can be no legal difference.
  - zinekeller 10mo ago
    And this is rather an anemic take. The (proposed) UK VPN ban that was recently discussed here have a definition on what exactly is a "VPN" for the purposes of the ban (basically "VPNs generally advertised to normal consumers") but a lot simply shouted "ssh go brr" (and definitely did not read the proposed law). These "let's go techical" thinking never flies with the poeple who makes such legislation, and in (probably unpopular!) opinion we should talk to them in terms that they can understand. Yes, we don't want that law, but having a purist take would probably alienate regular people. It doesn't really matter that a single person has found a loophole because many, many other people don't have such a luxury, and that's what the lawmakers are aiming for.
    - marcus_holmes 10mo ago
      I have worked for fintech companies that mandate VPN use as a security measure. It's going to be interesting when the majority of the UK accesses the internet via VPN because of the increasingly ridiculous hoops that the UK makes them go through, and the government tries to stop them while also allowing VPNs to be used by the tech sector. I agree, these are two separate legal processes powered by the same technology. But the internet doesn't have any awareness of legality (thankfully) so we're stuck with only the technical meaning.
      - hdgvhicv 10mo ago
        They mandate you use Nordvpn? Or surf shark? I doubt that.
        marcus_holmes 10mo ago
- TZubiri 10mo ago
  Here's me making a similar argument a month or so ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45926849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45926849 Besides the political implications, I think we should try to find an objective taxonomy, it's clear that privacy VPNs and network security VPNs are different products semantically, commercially and legally, even if the same core tech is used. Possibly the configuration and network topology is different even, making it a technically different product, similar to how a DNS might be either an authorative server for a TLD, an ISP proxy for an end user, a consumer blacklist like pihole, or an industrial blacklist like spamhaus. It would be a non trivial mistake to conflate any pair of those and bring one up in an argument that refers to the other.
- kotaKat 10mo ago
  To flip that though, what about just using those sketchy-ass malware-laden "residential IP" VPN providers and route your traffic through someone else's hacked up VPN running on a Fire TV stick they bought off JimBob for $200?
- pmontra 10mo ago
  It's not so easy to setup. I mean: it's easy but it hits some real world constraints. Example 1. I run Blockada on my Android phone, so I can block every ad even in apps and I can more or less firewall them (the outside calls). Blockada runs as a local VPN and unfortunately Android allows only one active VPN. So it's either Blockada or Wireguard. I'm with Blockada but I might occasionally want to disable it and enable Wireguard. I never did it yet because: Example 2. WireGuard does not run everywhere. My little home ARM based server has a Linux kernel with some special driver to manage its hardware (it's pretty common on non-Raspberry ARM devices) and WireGuard does not run on it. It requires a newer kernel that I still cannot upgrade to and maybe I will never be able to. So I don't have anything to VPN to. I might eventually put online a Raspberry, even an old model 3, as a bastion host on the home end of the VPN, but then it would be something else to care about and to power. It's not worth the mind share and the wattage so far.
- dang 10mo ago
  Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - oefrha 10mo ago
    I fail to see how this is a personal attack. I was basically saying I don’t understand why people always have to post these ostensibly on-topic, actually off-topic humble brags (?). Where’s the attack? “You know perfectly well”? People have really thin skins these days if that counts as an attack. I see multiple more aggressive comments in this very comment tree (e.g. “it's an ignorant and arrogant take”) and IMO even those hardly crossed the line.
    - dang 10mo ago
      "You know perfectly well" is already edgy, but when you follow it with "I don't understand the motivation of these $dumb-comment-paraphrase" and then a "like, come on" and a "you're not impressing anyone", you've crossed well into personal attack. You're a great HN user and commenter and your contributions are much appreciated! I don't want to come across like a bag of bricks but if you would use this feedback to fine-tune a bit, that would be appreciated. (You may be right that other commenters were breaking the guidelines worse, but we just don't come close to seeing everything, and a lot of what we do see happens by random access.)
protocolture 10mo ago
>I connect to my residential ISP in the USA via VPN all the time and have never had issues with being blocked for VPN use. Bit of a non sequitur, you would have to outline your entire usage pattern to even submit that as N=1. GEOIP providers dont sit on your home network. They do accept data from third parties, and are themselves (likely) subscribed to other IP addressing lists. Mostly they are a data aggregator, and its garbage in > garbage out. If someone, say netflix, but other services participate, flag you as having an inconsistent location, they may forward those details on and you can get added to one of these lists. You might see ip bans at various content providers. But the implementation is so slapshod that you can just as likely, poison a single ip in a CGNAT pool, and have it take over a month for anyone to act on it, where some other users on your same ISP might experience the issue. These things can also be weighted by usage, larger amounts of traffic are more interesting because it can represent a pool of more users, or more IP infringement per user. You can also get hit from poor IP reputation, hosting a webserver with a proxy or php reverse shell, or a hundred other things. (Also, larger ISPs might deal with a GEOIP provider selling lists of VPN users that include their IP address space, legally, rather than just going through the process of getting the list updated normally. This means the GEOIP providers can get skittish around some ISPs and might just not include them in lists)
- mycall 10mo ago
  > You can also get hit from poor IP reputation, hosting a webserver with a proxy or php reverse shell, or a hundred other things. or in my case, have a VM on same subnet as other poor actors and thus get bad rep from others.
- zinekeller 10mo ago
  There is even a single company in the unique position to actually tell where exactly(-ish, considering CGNAT exists) where an IP address is located: Google. They do use the "enhanced location" data on Android devices to pinpoint where an IP is, so a single Android device can actually change fings for Google (and YouTube).
aaomidi 10mo ago
https://ipinfo.io/what-is-my-ip https://ipinfo.io/what-is-my-ip Here’s one database to check.
Lapel2742 10mo ago
>Maybe they mean commercial VPN providers that run on the cloud? I just tried it with a well known commercial VPN and I had no problems accessing the site and its music content.

by itake 10mo ago

I connect to my residential ISP in the USA via VPN all the time and have never had issues with being blocked for VPN use. Maybe they mean commercial VPN providers that run on the cloud?

oefrha 10mo ago

[flagged]

fragmede 10mo ago
Tailscale is really not that hard to set up. There's an Apple TV app for it, even. And who doesn't have some friend in another state or country that would like an Apple TV?
- cyberrock 10mo ago
  Obviously not everyone have friends in all of the countries they want to tunnel to (or want to ask them). Otherwise these VPN services wouldn't exist.
- gruez 10mo ago
  Your friends don't find it uneasy that you can be tunneling illegal activities through their internet connection and have the FBI knocking at their door in a few months?
  - wredcoll 10mo ago
    This word you used... friend... what does it mean to you?
  - sersi 10mo ago
    Exactly, I have friends from other countries. Friends I really like, I would not give a VPN access to my internet connection to most of them. They have to be the perfect intersection of technically competent (so that their computer doesn't get turned into a botnet) and fully trustworthy. I do actually give VPN access to my mother that is not technically competent but I have full access to her computer and locked her down as much as possible
- positr0n 10mo ago
  I live a thousand miles from another country. No I don't have friends in another country and I don't even know anyone with friends in another country except immigrants or spouses of immigrants.
- politelemon 10mo ago
  I am concerned that this comment reads like an advert, it's completely unnecessary and out of touch.
  - fragmede 10mo ago
    How is it out of touch? GP comment makes it sound like the technical know to setup a VPN exit node is this crazily esoteric super weird nerdy thing that no one would expect anyone normal to even know about. Installing an Apple TV app onto an Apple TV and mailing it to a friend requires zero command line usage. But no, Tailscale did not pay me for this comment. I do happen to know someone that works there though.
    - devilbunny 10mo ago
      Don't bother with these comments. I made a similar reply to yours a few days ago and while most found it useful, a surprising amount of whataboutism occurred - no, Apple TV hardware isn't common, or no, only old people have them, or no, why would you use an Apple TV when [X] can do it cheaper, or no, why not self-host and not be dependent on Apple and Tailscale? Entirely missing the point that setting up a VPN exit node on your own or someone else's connection is a crazily esoteric super weird nerdy thing outside of communities like HN, and Tailscale on an Apple TV box will not only work but automatically update itself with no intervention on your part, and that the person whose house it is in needs extremely minimal technical skill to do what you tell them to over the phone.
      - fragmede 10mo ago
        Thanks. With people in their own independent bubbles it's hard to tell, but with a guess at 25 million Apple TVs out there in the wild, I didn't think it was that esoteric, but what do I know. Thanks again, devilbunny
        devilbunny 10mo ago
        I'd say that even the idea that you could VPN into your own network and forward all traffic through it is pretty far from the mainstream. Let alone how to actually do it. Most people think of VPN as a way to avoid porn blocks or getting tagged for piracy. But, as you and I both noted, the technical know-how for setting up Tailscale is not that high, and for using it is almost nil. Turn it on, pick an exit node, go. Combine that with a device that's intended as a consumer appliance that makes maintenance a non-issue, and you have a very good solution for the family geek. You're very welcome.
delusional 10mo ago
The exhausting "well actually" masks a corrosive argument, that if you can't enforce the rules in a rigid and rigorous fashion, the rule is fiat. It's not that he doesn't know the difference. He's making the argument that since there's no _technical_ difference there can be no legal difference.
- zinekeller 10mo ago
  And this is rather an anemic take. The (proposed) UK VPN ban that was recently discussed here have a definition on what exactly is a "VPN" for the purposes of the ban (basically "VPNs generally advertised to normal consumers") but a lot simply shouted "ssh go brr" (and definitely did not read the proposed law). These "let's go techical" thinking never flies with the poeple who makes such legislation, and in (probably unpopular!) opinion we should talk to them in terms that they can understand. Yes, we don't want that law, but having a purist take would probably alienate regular people. It doesn't really matter that a single person has found a loophole because many, many other people don't have such a luxury, and that's what the lawmakers are aiming for.
  - marcus_holmes 10mo ago
    I have worked for fintech companies that mandate VPN use as a security measure. It's going to be interesting when the majority of the UK accesses the internet via VPN because of the increasingly ridiculous hoops that the UK makes them go through, and the government tries to stop them while also allowing VPNs to be used by the tech sector. I agree, these are two separate legal processes powered by the same technology. But the internet doesn't have any awareness of legality (thankfully) so we're stuck with only the technical meaning.
    - hdgvhicv 10mo ago
      They mandate you use Nordvpn? Or surf shark? I doubt that.
      - marcus_holmes 10mo ago
TZubiri 10mo ago
Here's me making a similar argument a month or so ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45926849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45926849 Besides the political implications, I think we should try to find an objective taxonomy, it's clear that privacy VPNs and network security VPNs are different products semantically, commercially and legally, even if the same core tech is used. Possibly the configuration and network topology is different even, making it a technically different product, similar to how a DNS might be either an authorative server for a TLD, an ISP proxy for an end user, a consumer blacklist like pihole, or an industrial blacklist like spamhaus. It would be a non trivial mistake to conflate any pair of those and bring one up in an argument that refers to the other.
kotaKat 10mo ago
To flip that though, what about just using those sketchy-ass malware-laden "residential IP" VPN providers and route your traffic through someone else's hacked up VPN running on a Fire TV stick they bought off JimBob for $200?
pmontra 10mo ago
It's not so easy to setup. I mean: it's easy but it hits some real world constraints. Example 1. I run Blockada on my Android phone, so I can block every ad even in apps and I can more or less firewall them (the outside calls). Blockada runs as a local VPN and unfortunately Android allows only one active VPN. So it's either Blockada or Wireguard. I'm with Blockada but I might occasionally want to disable it and enable Wireguard. I never did it yet because: Example 2. WireGuard does not run everywhere. My little home ARM based server has a Linux kernel with some special driver to manage its hardware (it's pretty common on non-Raspberry ARM devices) and WireGuard does not run on it. It requires a newer kernel that I still cannot upgrade to and maybe I will never be able to. So I don't have anything to VPN to. I might eventually put online a Raspberry, even an old model 3, as a bastion host on the home end of the VPN, but then it would be something else to care about and to power. It's not worth the mind share and the wattage so far.
dang 10mo ago
Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- oefrha 10mo ago
  I fail to see how this is a personal attack. I was basically saying I don’t understand why people always have to post these ostensibly on-topic, actually off-topic humble brags (?). Where’s the attack? “You know perfectly well”? People have really thin skins these days if that counts as an attack. I see multiple more aggressive comments in this very comment tree (e.g. “it's an ignorant and arrogant take”) and IMO even those hardly crossed the line.
  - dang 10mo ago
    "You know perfectly well" is already edgy, but when you follow it with "I don't understand the motivation of these $dumb-comment-paraphrase" and then a "like, come on" and a "you're not impressing anyone", you've crossed well into personal attack. You're a great HN user and commenter and your contributions are much appreciated! I don't want to come across like a bag of bricks but if you would use this feedback to fine-tune a bit, that would be appreciated. (You may be right that other commenters were breaking the guidelines worse, but we just don't come close to seeing everything, and a lot of what we do see happens by random access.)

protocolture 10mo ago

>I connect to my residential ISP in the USA via VPN all the time and have never had issues with being blocked for VPN use. Bit of a non sequitur, you would have to outline your entire usage pattern to even submit that as N=1. GEOIP providers dont sit on your home network. They do accept data from third parties, and are themselves (likely) subscribed to other IP addressing lists. Mostly they are a data aggregator, and its garbage in > garbage out. If someone, say netflix, but other services participate, flag you as having an inconsistent location, they may forward those details on and you can get added to one of these lists. You might see ip bans at various content providers. But the implementation is so slapshod that you can just as likely, poison a single ip in a CGNAT pool, and have it take over a month for anyone to act on it, where some other users on your same ISP might experience the issue. These things can also be weighted by usage, larger amounts of traffic are more interesting because it can represent a pool of more users, or more IP infringement per user. You can also get hit from poor IP reputation, hosting a webserver with a proxy or php reverse shell, or a hundred other things. (Also, larger ISPs might deal with a GEOIP provider selling lists of VPN users that include their IP address space, legally, rather than just going through the process of getting the list updated normally. This means the GEOIP providers can get skittish around some ISPs and might just not include them in lists)

mycall 10mo ago
> You can also get hit from poor IP reputation, hosting a webserver with a proxy or php reverse shell, or a hundred other things. or in my case, have a VM on same subnet as other poor actors and thus get bad rep from others.
zinekeller 10mo ago
There is even a single company in the unique position to actually tell where exactly(-ish, considering CGNAT exists) where an IP address is located: Google. They do use the "enhanced location" data on Android devices to pinpoint where an IP is, so a single Android device can actually change fings for Google (and YouTube).

aaomidi 10mo ago

https://ipinfo.io/what-is-my-ip https://ipinfo.io/what-is-my-ip Here’s one database to check.

Lapel2742 10mo ago

>Maybe they mean commercial VPN providers that run on the cloud? I just tried it with a well known commercial VPN and I had no problems accessing the site and its music content.