5 ms·

Plausibly some kids might still be reading entire novels worth of text online on the regular. Think of all the massive fanfic archives (Including original fics)

Plausibly some kids might still be reading entire novels worth of text online on the regular. Think of all the massive fanfic archives (Including original fics) Lots of fanfic authors have fans of their own, and those have got to be coming from somewhere. It doesn't need to be in dead tree format. It doesn't need to be famous authors. Just so long as they read! For long form original see eg: * The last angel https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-last-angel.244209/ https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-last-angel.24420... * The wandering inn https://wanderinginn.com/2017/03/03/rw1-00/ https://wanderinginn.com/2017/03/03/rw1-00/ * Or eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martian_(Weir_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martian_(Weir_novel) which made its way off the net and into print, possibly to the detriment of both. :-P Original location (afaict) (no longer available there) : https://www.galactanet.com/writing.html https://www.galactanet.com/writing.html

fgh_azer 11mo ago
The question is whether reading: - an entire novel worth of short texts, beginning to end - an entire novel worth of short excerpts from longer texts - an entire novel, beginning to end are the same things.
- Kim_Bruning 11mo ago
  Oh, are you responding to my examples? * Last angel: A web serial, sure it's chunked into chapters/updates, but paper novels have chapters too. * The Wandering inn, same as above, it's at 2 million+ words and counting. People read it. * The Martian: Actually the shortest text of the bunch. Now available as a traditional paper novel.
  - fgh_azer 11mo ago
    I am not responding to the examples, and I am not challenging the claim that famous vs not famous author does not matter, or that dead tree vs screen does not matter; I am raising the question whether it's just a quantity issue ("Just so long as they read", "entire novels worth of text"). Is it? I am not sure either way. Do you lose something by only reading chapters of a novel but never the whole story from the beginning to the end, even if you're still reading the same amount?
corimaith 11mo ago
The writing quality and complexity of amateur content, even long-form is only around the level of a YA novel, truth be told alot of the stuff I was reading back in junior high in my school library had more depth than this. It's good that you can get people reading, but reading the equivalent of pulp is very different from real novel that isn't so bounded by tropes or genre limits.
- Kim_Bruning 11mo ago
  90% of everything is crap. --Sturgeon's law. Maybe even 99+% these days, seeing how easy it is to publish your first finger-painting online. Doesn't mean there isn't any good stuff, or even a lot of good stuff. 1% of a lot is still a lot. (ps. and once you get people reading, they tend to keep doing it and develop taste over time. if it's even just a few who wouldn't have done it before. That's good, right?) (pps. For example: at 2M words, I think pirateaba might exceed the "first 1M words are practice" threshold)
- squigz 11mo ago
  Who cares? If people enjoy it, let them enjoy it. I've read a few YA novels as an adult that I enjoyed, even though I regularly read more complex stuff. Most people, for most of history, have only ever enjoyed what might be considered "low quality" entertainment - pulp fiction, shitty plays, etc. > real novel that isn't so bounded by tropes or genre limits. Interestingly, even discounting YA and other stuff like that, you are only describing a very small subset of novels.
  - SubmarineClub 11mo ago
    >Who cares? I do? Why would I want my kids to be consuming crap when they could be engaging with great works and high art?
    - pavel_lishin 11mo ago
      What if that's not the choice? What if the choice is "engage with art they enjoy and appreciate, or not at all"?
impossiblefork 11mo ago
Fanfic reading is not like novel reading in that you don't need to really understand new, unfamiliar characters though. Thus it can tend to become limiting; and I say this as someone who actually does enjoy fanfiction.
- delichon 11mo ago
  > Fanfic reading is not like novel reading in that you don't need to really understand new, unfamiliar characters though. So the Lord of the Rings series counts as one book? I'd believe diminishing returns, but not one and done. Also, I thought that Yudkowsky's HPMOR fanfic had more interesting ideas than the whole Rowling series, which I like a lot.
  - tayo42 11mo ago
    I believe the publisher of LOTR broke it up into multiple books.
  - Amezarak 11mo ago
    Yes, pedantically, and as mentioned in the Notes in the Text in most editions, the Lord of the Rings is a single book sometimes published in three volumes.
    - BigGreenJorts 11mo ago
      Yeah I thought it was such a funny example yo pick out bc, yes it is!
  - impossiblefork 11mo ago
    >Also, I thought that Yudkowsky's HPMOR fanfic had more interesting ideas than the whole Rowling series, which I like a lot. Then you do not understand writing. If Yudkowski really had more interesting ideas, then he would have been able to do HPMOR as original fiction. Rowling is actually really good, inventing very charming things, very fun sentences, and there's nothing even close in HPMOR (I have read it myself, and enjoyed it to some degree), but you really underestimate how good Rowling is.
ThrowawayR2 11mo ago
> "massive fanfic archives" Ye gods, that's like saying that youth may not be willing to consume a nutritious, balanced diet but we should rejoice that they are at least consuming vast quantities of sugar and fat. With vanishingly rare exceptions, fanfic is crap in textual form, laden to bursting with literary sins both venal and mortal.
- Aerroon 11mo ago
  The usefulness of reading books is not about what factual information you can glean from them. They're about engaging the imagination and making you take hypothetical situations seriously. In that sense traditionally published works aren't going to offer all that much more than fanfiction.
  - badwriter101 11mo ago
    > They're about engaging the imagination and making you take hypothetical situations seriously. - that nudges readers in interesting (to society) or new (to the reader) directions. Or at least in not in actively harmful ways. Otherwise, OF, livestreaming, or whatever latest social media BS, etc. are king: purposefully designed to create parasocial relationships that trick you thinking you have chance to be noticed. My main beef with most fan fiction is that in my experience, it unconsciously locks readers into an extremely rigid way of thinking. Of course, this varies from fandom to fandom but woe upon the budding writer who ships the wrong pair or violates the canon. It mirrors religious dogma, but somehow even worse when compared to all the disputes in Christianity throughout the centuries. (Plus, there's at least a connection between Christianity to modern democracy.)
- nitwit005 10mo ago
  People said all kinds of nonsense about comic books and cheap novels leading kids astray in the past. What actually happened is those kids ended up being slightly better readers. That you don't like something doesn't mean it's actually harmful.
  - ThrowawayR2 10mo ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 11mo ago
Most online text is shit and doesn't count IMO. Why would you want to waste your time reading the thoughts of average people (including this one)?
eudamoniac 11mo ago
Beyond a basic level of literacy, I'm not sure it's clear that reading pulp is better for any defined outcome than reading nothing. And I'm not sure why it would be. Once you are able to fully grasp a level of literacy, reading more of that level or below probably isn't really doing anything for you.

fgh_azer 11mo ago

The question is whether reading: - an entire novel worth of short texts, beginning to end - an entire novel worth of short excerpts from longer texts - an entire novel, beginning to end are the same things.

Kim_Bruning 11mo ago
Oh, are you responding to my examples? * Last angel: A web serial, sure it's chunked into chapters/updates, but paper novels have chapters too. * The Wandering inn, same as above, it's at 2 million+ words and counting. People read it. * The Martian: Actually the shortest text of the bunch. Now available as a traditional paper novel.
- fgh_azer 11mo ago
  I am not responding to the examples, and I am not challenging the claim that famous vs not famous author does not matter, or that dead tree vs screen does not matter; I am raising the question whether it's just a quantity issue ("Just so long as they read", "entire novels worth of text"). Is it? I am not sure either way. Do you lose something by only reading chapters of a novel but never the whole story from the beginning to the end, even if you're still reading the same amount?

corimaith 11mo ago

The writing quality and complexity of amateur content, even long-form is only around the level of a YA novel, truth be told alot of the stuff I was reading back in junior high in my school library had more depth than this. It's good that you can get people reading, but reading the equivalent of pulp is very different from real novel that isn't so bounded by tropes or genre limits.

Kim_Bruning 11mo ago
90% of everything is crap. --Sturgeon's law. Maybe even 99+% these days, seeing how easy it is to publish your first finger-painting online. Doesn't mean there isn't any good stuff, or even a lot of good stuff. 1% of a lot is still a lot. (ps. and once you get people reading, they tend to keep doing it and develop taste over time. if it's even just a few who wouldn't have done it before. That's good, right?) (pps. For example: at 2M words, I think pirateaba might exceed the "first 1M words are practice" threshold)
squigz 11mo ago
Who cares? If people enjoy it, let them enjoy it. I've read a few YA novels as an adult that I enjoyed, even though I regularly read more complex stuff. Most people, for most of history, have only ever enjoyed what might be considered "low quality" entertainment - pulp fiction, shitty plays, etc. > real novel that isn't so bounded by tropes or genre limits. Interestingly, even discounting YA and other stuff like that, you are only describing a very small subset of novels.
- SubmarineClub 11mo ago
  >Who cares? I do? Why would I want my kids to be consuming crap when they could be engaging with great works and high art?
  - pavel_lishin 11mo ago
    What if that's not the choice? What if the choice is "engage with art they enjoy and appreciate, or not at all"?

impossiblefork 11mo ago

Fanfic reading is not like novel reading in that you don't need to really understand new, unfamiliar characters though. Thus it can tend to become limiting; and I say this as someone who actually does enjoy fanfiction.

delichon 11mo ago
> Fanfic reading is not like novel reading in that you don't need to really understand new, unfamiliar characters though. So the Lord of the Rings series counts as one book? I'd believe diminishing returns, but not one and done. Also, I thought that Yudkowsky's HPMOR fanfic had more interesting ideas than the whole Rowling series, which I like a lot.
- tayo42 11mo ago
  I believe the publisher of LOTR broke it up into multiple books.
- Amezarak 11mo ago
  Yes, pedantically, and as mentioned in the Notes in the Text in most editions, the Lord of the Rings is a single book sometimes published in three volumes.
  - BigGreenJorts 11mo ago
    Yeah I thought it was such a funny example yo pick out bc, yes it is!
- impossiblefork 11mo ago
  >Also, I thought that Yudkowsky's HPMOR fanfic had more interesting ideas than the whole Rowling series, which I like a lot. Then you do not understand writing. If Yudkowski really had more interesting ideas, then he would have been able to do HPMOR as original fiction. Rowling is actually really good, inventing very charming things, very fun sentences, and there's nothing even close in HPMOR (I have read it myself, and enjoyed it to some degree), but you really underestimate how good Rowling is.

ThrowawayR2 11mo ago

> "massive fanfic archives" Ye gods, that's like saying that youth may not be willing to consume a nutritious, balanced diet but we should rejoice that they are at least consuming vast quantities of sugar and fat. With vanishingly rare exceptions, fanfic is crap in textual form, laden to bursting with literary sins both venal and mortal.

Aerroon 11mo ago
The usefulness of reading books is not about what factual information you can glean from them. They're about engaging the imagination and making you take hypothetical situations seriously. In that sense traditionally published works aren't going to offer all that much more than fanfiction.
- badwriter101 11mo ago
  > They're about engaging the imagination and making you take hypothetical situations seriously. - that nudges readers in interesting (to society) or new (to the reader) directions. Or at least in not in actively harmful ways. Otherwise, OF, livestreaming, or whatever latest social media BS, etc. are king: purposefully designed to create parasocial relationships that trick you thinking you have chance to be noticed. My main beef with most fan fiction is that in my experience, it unconsciously locks readers into an extremely rigid way of thinking. Of course, this varies from fandom to fandom but woe upon the budding writer who ships the wrong pair or violates the canon. It mirrors religious dogma, but somehow even worse when compared to all the disputes in Christianity throughout the centuries. (Plus, there's at least a connection between Christianity to modern democracy.)
nitwit005 10mo ago
People said all kinds of nonsense about comic books and cheap novels leading kids astray in the past. What actually happened is those kids ended up being slightly better readers. That you don't like something doesn't mean it's actually harmful.
- ThrowawayR2 10mo ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 11mo ago

Most online text is shit and doesn't count IMO. Why would you want to waste your time reading the thoughts of average people (including this one)?

eudamoniac 11mo ago

Beyond a basic level of literacy, I'm not sure it's clear that reading pulp is better for any defined outcome than reading nothing. And I'm not sure why it would be. Once you are able to fully grasp a level of literacy, reading more of that level or below probably isn't really doing anything for you.