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> To better understand fatigue, Pessiglione, Chib and other researchers are trying to bridge an understanding of its biochemical workings with how it affects mo

by arjie 11mo ago

> To better understand fatigue, Pessiglione, Chib and other researchers are trying to bridge an understanding of its biochemical workings with how it affects motivation4. The current hypothesis: cognitive fatigue arises from metabolic changes in parts of the brain that are responsible for cognitive control This will be interesting to see because for a long time there's been a lot of work saying that "ego depletion" isn't a thing[0] and I swear I have tried to believe this but my own personal experience is completely different. Later in the night, and when I'm mentally tired I do experience this: poor impulse control, lowered emotion regulation, the whole shebang. It'll be interesting to see what the basis is for this, because despite taking all that research at face-value I have to say that now after all these years, I can't help but think it must be wrong. 0: though some have claimed that it is a thing if you believe that it's a thing, i.e. it happens to those who believe in it.

aswegs8 11mo ago
Ego depletion isn't a thing if you don't believe in it? Who said that? Dr. Goggins?
- arjie 11mo ago
  Haha! Listen, the "you can do it if you believe in yourself" stuff always sounds bogus. But there was some stuff around ten years ago about this. Here's an example: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1313475110#F1 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1313475110#F1
  - DiscourseFan 11mo ago
    I don’t think its completely bogus. There are lots of things you can do that you don’t realize you can. But 40-50 hours of work a week, even if you don’t even leave your house, still takes a lot out of you.
- monoidl 11mo ago
  Also when I last checked, "willpower as a finite resource isn't a thing" was simply the scientific consensus But I agree that doesn't necessarily translate to "willpower is infinite"
IsTom 11mo ago
I feel there is more than one type of mental fatigue. Some of them can be forced through (e.g. the emotional kind that happens when you have to do something you don't want to do) and some can't (e.g. not having enough sleep for prolonged time).
pitched 11mo ago
Physical fatigue is lack of ATP and happens through the day as oxidation builds up. Cognitive fatigue is a build-up of used neurotransmitters that also build up over the day. These two processes interact with each other though where neurotransmitter reuptake uses a lot of ATP. I see that connection between them as ego depletion. If true, the best solution to it is a nap because that will help clear the junk out.
- IAmBroom 11mo ago
  You should write to the researchers, so they can stop wasting their time.
  - pitched 11mo ago
    That the advice lines up with folk wisdom means they’re probably on the right track.
rdgthree 11mo ago
I think Daniel Kahneman's System 1 (habits, unconscious) and System 2 (learning, "error correction", conscious) are physical systems, and System 2 takes a LOT more energy to run. So, when you get tired, System 2 leans more and more on the much more energy efficient System 1. So you get behaviors that look like unrestrained habits: poor impulse control, lowered emotional regulation, etc Edit: I wrote more about this idea if anyone is curious: https://1393.xyz/writing/alzheimers-is-the-symptom-not-the-problem https://1393.xyz/writing/alzheimers-is-the-symptom-not-the-p...
- notaurus 11mo ago
  If you’ve read the book, they stressed many times that this was irrelevant to the model and also probably untrue
- plantain 11mo ago
  I love the simplicity of the System 1/2 breakdown - but is there any actual evidence behind it? It seems like such a classic pop-psychology observational deduction of how something might work with no science to prove it.
  - rdgthree 11mo ago
    In cognitive psychology there's all sorts of evidence that we have two distinct processes, but I don't think anyone has really mapped it to a physical system yet. Modeling two physical systems is pretty interesting though because dementia ends up looking like a clear failure of System 2. Really neat idea generator even if imperfect.
- arjie 11mo ago
  I do appreciate when people write up their ideas like this. It would be great if you had an RSS feed.
  - rdgthree 11mo ago
    Should have added one sooner! Here you go: https://1393.xyz/rss.xml https://1393.xyz/rss.xml

by arjie 11mo ago

aswegs8 11mo ago

Ego depletion isn't a thing if you don't believe in it? Who said that? Dr. Goggins?

arjie 11mo ago
Haha! Listen, the "you can do it if you believe in yourself" stuff always sounds bogus. But there was some stuff around ten years ago about this. Here's an example: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1313475110#F1 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1313475110#F1
- DiscourseFan 11mo ago
  I don’t think its completely bogus. There are lots of things you can do that you don’t realize you can. But 40-50 hours of work a week, even if you don’t even leave your house, still takes a lot out of you.
monoidl 11mo ago
Also when I last checked, "willpower as a finite resource isn't a thing" was simply the scientific consensus But I agree that doesn't necessarily translate to "willpower is infinite"

IsTom 11mo ago

I feel there is more than one type of mental fatigue. Some of them can be forced through (e.g. the emotional kind that happens when you have to do something you don't want to do) and some can't (e.g. not having enough sleep for prolonged time).

pitched 11mo ago

Physical fatigue is lack of ATP and happens through the day as oxidation builds up. Cognitive fatigue is a build-up of used neurotransmitters that also build up over the day. These two processes interact with each other though where neurotransmitter reuptake uses a lot of ATP. I see that connection between them as ego depletion. If true, the best solution to it is a nap because that will help clear the junk out.

IAmBroom 11mo ago
You should write to the researchers, so they can stop wasting their time.
- pitched 11mo ago
  That the advice lines up with folk wisdom means they’re probably on the right track.

rdgthree 11mo ago

I think Daniel Kahneman's System 1 (habits, unconscious) and System 2 (learning, "error correction", conscious) are physical systems, and System 2 takes a LOT more energy to run. So, when you get tired, System 2 leans more and more on the much more energy efficient System 1. So you get behaviors that look like unrestrained habits: poor impulse control, lowered emotional regulation, etc Edit: I wrote more about this idea if anyone is curious: https://1393.xyz/writing/alzheimers-is-the-symptom-not-the-problem https://1393.xyz/writing/alzheimers-is-the-symptom-not-the-p...

notaurus 11mo ago
If you’ve read the book, they stressed many times that this was irrelevant to the model and also probably untrue
plantain 11mo ago
I love the simplicity of the System 1/2 breakdown - but is there any actual evidence behind it? It seems like such a classic pop-psychology observational deduction of how something might work with no science to prove it.
- rdgthree 11mo ago
  In cognitive psychology there's all sorts of evidence that we have two distinct processes, but I don't think anyone has really mapped it to a physical system yet. Modeling two physical systems is pretty interesting though because dementia ends up looking like a clear failure of System 2. Really neat idea generator even if imperfect.
arjie 11mo ago
I do appreciate when people write up their ideas like this. It would be great if you had an RSS feed.
- rdgthree 11mo ago
  Should have added one sooner! Here you go: https://1393.xyz/rss.xml https://1393.xyz/rss.xml