6 ms·

To contrast, HS2 here in the UK has cost £40 billion (€45 billion) to date with a further £25 billion (€28 billion) allocated, for a largely superterranean rout

by oniony 10mo ago

To contrast, HS2 here in the UK has cost £40 billion (€45 billion) to date with a further £25 billion (€28 billion) allocated, for a largely superterranean route of 230km.

monster_truck 10mo ago
7x longer for 11x the cost seems pretty good all things considered. Always thought it seemed like a waste to not also dig out a bunch of storage while we're down there. I'm sure there are good reasons we don't
- IshKebab 10mo ago
  Yeah because it would be extremely expensive and we don't need it.
- oniony 10mo ago
  It's not seven times longer. The Austrian line is 130km with 50km of tunnels. Length Tunnels Bridges Stations Cost Koralm 130km ~50km 100 12 €6b HS2 230km ~75km 100+ 4 €74b+ Obviously this does not give any indication of the complexity of each project. Tunnelling and building railway through a metropolis I would imagine is quite challenging.
  - shevy-java 10mo ago
    Still seems insanely more expensive in the UK. I understand they have a higher cost to carry because their project is indeed more complex, but that's like a almost 13x more expensive variant, while not even being two times the length.
  - rsynnott 10mo ago
    As far as I can see, the 6bn is _just_ for the big 30km tunnel? Presumably the rest of it cost more.
  - orthoxerox 10mo ago
    Sounds like you might want to build the whole HS2 underground to save money.
  - monster_truck 10mo ago
    HS2 is five sets of twin bore tunnels, so there is more "tunnel per tunnel"
stephen_g 10mo ago
As badly as HS2 has been run, apart from the tunnel length (where HS2 has not too much more than this project) these projects are night and day different. Not just that HS2 Phase 1a/1b is almost double the length and significantly higher design speed (360km/h vs 250km/h), but they are in a different league in terms of civil engineering from the info I can see - this seems to have less than 80 structures (overpasses, bridges, underpasses etc.) whereas HS2 has 175 bridges and 52 viaducts, and some of those are massive (including the longest railway viaduct in the UK).
- cjrp 10mo ago
  > this seems to have less than 80 structures (overpasses, bridges, underpasses etc.) whereas HS2 has 175 bridges and 52 viaducts. Doesn't tunnel beat any of those structures in terms of cost/complexity?
  - georgefrowny 10mo ago
    Not necessarily because no one lives underground and there are probably no existing things like property, gas lines, electricity lines, sewers, pipelines, roads, etc to avoid or reroute. And very little in the way of habitat. The longest road tunnel in the world only cost about 100 million in the 90s for 25km so tunneling isn't always a gigantic Big Dig style clusterfuck. In terms of legal complexity, it's fantastically easier than picking your way across and near thousands of individual plots of very expensive land owned by people with solicitors salivating at the potential fees, expensive private infrastructure, nature reserves and so on.
    - deaux 10mo ago
      > The longest road tunnel in the world only cost about 100 million in the 90s for 25km so tunneling isn't always a gigantic Big Dig style clusterfuck. Big Dig style clusterfuck is because the simplicity and cheapness you're talking about only apply to tunnels through mountains, less so to those underwater and definitely not to tunnels under big cities i.e. land that people live on, which comes with all the complexity.
neerajk 10mo ago
In contrast, the 2nd Ave Subway extension here in NY cost $4.5 billion for 2.9 km
zzbn00 10mo ago
Would be interesting to read how the Austrian project was contracted out? It seems in the UK the big construction companies have got very good in extracting a lot of money from customers, wonder if things were different in Austria with this project.
- aa-jv 10mo ago
  Austria tends to have pretty rigorous bean-counters overseeing budgets like this, especially when it comes to public-good services such as railway. It is one of the things that makes living here so .. infuriating at times .. but also .. rewarding.
  - zzbn00 10mo ago
    Interesting. In UK, I think the big construction companies would hire these bean-counters then use them to out-manoeuvre the ones that are hired to replace them. Quickly nobody knows what a reasonable price is, and the govmnt has to go with choice of one out of two overpriced bids. (I have no direct experience, this is just what it looks like from an observers perspective)
    - aa-jv 10mo ago
      Chalk it up to the differences between socialist-adjacent and capitalist-adjacent societies, I guess ...

by oniony 10mo ago

To contrast, HS2 here in the UK has cost £40 billion (€45 billion) to date with a further £25 billion (€28 billion) allocated, for a largely superterranean route of 230km.

monster_truck 10mo ago

7x longer for 11x the cost seems pretty good all things considered. Always thought it seemed like a waste to not also dig out a bunch of storage while we're down there. I'm sure there are good reasons we don't

IshKebab 10mo ago
Yeah because it would be extremely expensive and we don't need it.
oniony 10mo ago
It's not seven times longer. The Austrian line is 130km with 50km of tunnels. Length Tunnels Bridges Stations Cost Koralm 130km ~50km 100 12 €6b HS2 230km ~75km 100+ 4 €74b+ Obviously this does not give any indication of the complexity of each project. Tunnelling and building railway through a metropolis I would imagine is quite challenging.
- shevy-java 10mo ago
  Still seems insanely more expensive in the UK. I understand they have a higher cost to carry because their project is indeed more complex, but that's like a almost 13x more expensive variant, while not even being two times the length.
- rsynnott 10mo ago
  As far as I can see, the 6bn is _just_ for the big 30km tunnel? Presumably the rest of it cost more.
- orthoxerox 10mo ago
  Sounds like you might want to build the whole HS2 underground to save money.
- monster_truck 10mo ago
  HS2 is five sets of twin bore tunnels, so there is more "tunnel per tunnel"

stephen_g 10mo ago

As badly as HS2 has been run, apart from the tunnel length (where HS2 has not too much more than this project) these projects are night and day different. Not just that HS2 Phase 1a/1b is almost double the length and significantly higher design speed (360km/h vs 250km/h), but they are in a different league in terms of civil engineering from the info I can see - this seems to have less than 80 structures (overpasses, bridges, underpasses etc.) whereas HS2 has 175 bridges and 52 viaducts, and some of those are massive (including the longest railway viaduct in the UK).

cjrp 10mo ago
> this seems to have less than 80 structures (overpasses, bridges, underpasses etc.) whereas HS2 has 175 bridges and 52 viaducts. Doesn't tunnel beat any of those structures in terms of cost/complexity?
- georgefrowny 10mo ago
  Not necessarily because no one lives underground and there are probably no existing things like property, gas lines, electricity lines, sewers, pipelines, roads, etc to avoid or reroute. And very little in the way of habitat. The longest road tunnel in the world only cost about 100 million in the 90s for 25km so tunneling isn't always a gigantic Big Dig style clusterfuck. In terms of legal complexity, it's fantastically easier than picking your way across and near thousands of individual plots of very expensive land owned by people with solicitors salivating at the potential fees, expensive private infrastructure, nature reserves and so on.
  - deaux 10mo ago
    > The longest road tunnel in the world only cost about 100 million in the 90s for 25km so tunneling isn't always a gigantic Big Dig style clusterfuck. Big Dig style clusterfuck is because the simplicity and cheapness you're talking about only apply to tunnels through mountains, less so to those underwater and definitely not to tunnels under big cities i.e. land that people live on, which comes with all the complexity.

neerajk 10mo ago

In contrast, the 2nd Ave Subway extension here in NY cost $4.5 billion for 2.9 km

zzbn00 10mo ago

Would be interesting to read how the Austrian project was contracted out? It seems in the UK the big construction companies have got very good in extracting a lot of money from customers, wonder if things were different in Austria with this project.

aa-jv 10mo ago
Austria tends to have pretty rigorous bean-counters overseeing budgets like this, especially when it comes to public-good services such as railway. It is one of the things that makes living here so .. infuriating at times .. but also .. rewarding.
- zzbn00 10mo ago
  Interesting. In UK, I think the big construction companies would hire these bean-counters then use them to out-manoeuvre the ones that are hired to replace them. Quickly nobody knows what a reasonable price is, and the govmnt has to go with choice of one out of two overpriced bids. (I have no direct experience, this is just what it looks like from an observers perspective)
  - aa-jv 10mo ago
    Chalk it up to the differences between socialist-adjacent and capitalist-adjacent societies, I guess ...