6 ms·

Valid points by those concerned with taking over the sidewalks. I will also say, people riding electric scooters shouldn't be zooming along at 20mph (or pedal

Valid points by those concerned with taking over the sidewalks. I will also say, people riding electric scooters shouldn't be zooming along at 20mph (or pedal bikes) on sidewalks either, which are a true safety hazard. And on the other side, much better for our environment, to have a lighter weight robot delivering a burrito than a 2,000lb vehicle, in terms of net energy consumption/expenditure.

crote 10mo ago
Imagine how much better for the environment it'd be if your delivery was brought to you via a human-powered bicycle. Or as an in-between: e-bikes and e-mopeds. Using 2,000lb vehicles for last-mile burrito delivery is a "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" scenario. Delivery robots are an improvement because literally anything is.
- mmooss 10mo ago
  Why are you comparing them to cars, rather than the (e-)bikes used in most cities?
- climb_stealth 10mo ago
  God forbid someone would use their own two legs to walk and eat that burrito at the restaurant /s The extend to which some people get food delivered is absurd. I'm sure there exceptions and reasons and everything, but seriously.
  - smelendez 10mo ago
    It’s a vicious cycle. I’m not a big delivery fan myself but you go into some small casual restaurants now and everyone else in there is a delivery driver.
  - array_key_first 10mo ago
    I think it's a symptom of our work culture and lifestyle. When people are spending anywhere between 1-2 hours a day in a car going to a job that sucks the life out of them, I'm not surprised they don't have the energy to get food for themselves. Convenience services thrive in America because it's the only way the working class can claw back a teensy bit of time and energy. We could have had hybrid or even remote work, but that dream is dead. Traffic sucks, outside is loud and stinky, and you're in the office minimum 9 hours a day, 5 days a week. Minimum. I actually don't know anyone who works that little.
  - BLKNSLVR 10mo ago
    Yep, if you think you're too busy to go out to get food yourself, then you've definitely been breathing in your own farts for too long.
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    > extend to which some people get food delivered is absurd More than getting uppity online about others' personal dining choices?
- whyenot 10mo ago
  Why are you assuming that a human would be more efficient and better for the environment than an electrically powered robot? It is very inefficient (approx 25%) to use food as an energy source, and humans are always burning energy. They can't turn off at night or when they are idle. I think it is very likely that the robot would be better for the environment than the person.
  - recursive 10mo ago
    What does "good" for the environment even mean? I always assumed it means "good" for human purposes. But if we replace humans with robots, then the goodness of the environment seems somewhat moot. Oceans filled with plastic would be "good" for something. Just probably not us. Maybe robots?
  - dweinus 10mo ago
    ...so, are assuming that the humans stop eating/existing after you replace them with a robot?
    - AmbroseBierce 10mo ago
      UBI maybe? I'm joking, at least when talking about America, because maybe at least one of those Nordic countries will figure it out.
      - dweinus 10mo ago
        Sweet, let's do that, but it still will be more environmentally friendly to bike the burrito down the block than to build & maintain a robot.
      - ipaddr 10mo ago
        UBI. $500 per adult per month (~$1.4T) - existing welfare. for $1000 per month it would cost $3.1T. What about the children? $1,200 for every adult + $400 for every child 4.1 trillion/year The federal budget is 6 trillion/year. There would need to be deflation for 1,200 a month to have the buying power of the average income now. Right now that's minimum wage.
alistairSH 10mo ago
All the more reason to build separate infrastructure for bicycles and other “in-between” vehicles.
- derektank 10mo ago
  Yeah, depending on the speed of these vehicles, it seems like bike lanes are the appropriate place for them. A smart city could even offer companies an opportunity to fund the buildout of additional bike lanes if there aren’t any existing in the neighborhood in question
  - DSMan195276 10mo ago
    I think the problem is that if they're in the road their liability and required smarts go up a lot. Right now it sounds like they're at least partially relying on being the largest thing on the "road" and everyone else will naturally get out of their way.
  - abdullahkhalids 10mo ago
    A slow moving robot on a sidewalk in the worst case makes it inconvenient for pedestrians, and robs the rights of those in wheelchairs etc. A medium speed robot in the bike lane in the worst case causes a fatal or broken-bone accident.
    - hombre_fatal 10mo ago
      True. I don't think they belong in bike lanes nor pedestrian-only sidewalks. These delivery companies are being subsidized by our already-limited pedestrian infrastructure. Also, no human should have to move out of the way or trip over some someone's burrito delivery robot.
      - arjie 10mo ago
        The point of infrastructure is to have a common substrate where members of society can provide services to each other. Sure, in some sense there are subsidies but we have to account for the positive externalities. After all, a tennis court has very low utilization of space so that's a "subsidy for rich guys to talk about crypto". And golf courses likewise. It's just not a meaningful way to think of infrastructure. The point of infrastructure is that it benefits society, and it will benefit some people more than others. Nice sidewalks benefit the rich people who live there more than they do the poor people who have to drive from the suburbs to work there. And this business about "have to move out of the way" is really a bit much. If they're impeding the disabled then that's of some significance, and ensuring that those who need wheelchair access can still get places is worth it, but any able-bodied person can easily step aside. I find the online reaction to so much of this stuff hard to fathom. Occasionally, I'll walk by a Lime / Bird scooter that's fallen over and I just pick it up and place it on the side. The net gain to society of having easy-to-access last-mile transportation is probably much greater than this happening occasionally. I really think these things are far overblown. But if you go online, you'd think that sidewalks are completely unwalkable. I principally walk and bike (now e-bike) places and this has never been a problem either in San Francisco or London - both cities where a large contingent has constantly insisted that it is.
Mistletoe 10mo ago
Imagine if the people ordering delivery actually moved their body and went and got the food.
echelon 10mo ago
Atlanta has been an early market for both scooters and various food delivery robots. Both have been a boon for the city. We've had these delivery robots for about six months now, and they've grown to the point where I see hundreds of delivery robots on the sidewalks each week. Scores of them daily. They're flooding our city, making the long commutes people don't want to. The reason this is great is that Atlanta's infrastructure is car-centric and spread too far apart to make walking or even biking make sense. The biking infrastructure we have does no good when it rains and you're twenty minutes from your destination. That same infrastructure also doesn't serve our children or our elderly. Or help when you're sick or tired and need a pick me up. It's easy to order for a group of people from one of these. To imagine the same group of four people hopping on bikes together to travel twenty minutes to food - that's never once happened in my life. Only certain types of people bike, and you'll invariably find yourself in groups with lots of non-cyclists. I feel that cyclist culture is bright eyed and idealistic, but not practical. You need a city designed around it, and all the people need to grow up loving it. These delivery robots, Waymo, Lime bikes - they're much more sensible middle grounds for cities like ours. Where people can't bike, or simply don't want to.
- ipaddr 10mo ago
  Why don't the delivery people bike and you can stay at home.
  - echelon 10mo ago
    That would add $20/hr per biker, plus put the delivery folks at risk of bodily harm. Just so we can say we don't use robots?
smt88 10mo ago
The economies of scale of a 2,000 lb (electric) vehicle are probably such that they use far less carbon than an individual delivery robot on a per-delivery basis
hyperjeff 10mo ago
Bikes and scooters aren’t legal on sidewalks in Chicago, and these little robots are just clogging up what little pedestrian space still exists. Totally apart from the questionable ethics of gratuitously using tech for tasks that could be a job for someone.
- tptacek 10mo ago
  Wait, the first part I get: the robots are basically motor scooters, don't belong on sidewalks, sure. But the last bit, about "taking tasks that could be a job for someone" --- that's the lamplighter fallacy, isn't it?
- HDThoreaun 10mo ago
  As someone who has lived in chicago for 30 years I dont mind telling you that laws are not enforced here. Bikes and scooters not being legal on sidewalks has not stopped a single person from biking and scootering on the sidewalk

crote 10mo ago

Imagine how much better for the environment it'd be if your delivery was brought to you via a human-powered bicycle. Or as an in-between: e-bikes and e-mopeds. Using 2,000lb vehicles for last-mile burrito delivery is a "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" scenario. Delivery robots are an improvement because literally anything is.

mmooss 10mo ago
Why are you comparing them to cars, rather than the (e-)bikes used in most cities?
climb_stealth 10mo ago
God forbid someone would use their own two legs to walk and eat that burrito at the restaurant /s The extend to which some people get food delivered is absurd. I'm sure there exceptions and reasons and everything, but seriously.
- smelendez 10mo ago
  It’s a vicious cycle. I’m not a big delivery fan myself but you go into some small casual restaurants now and everyone else in there is a delivery driver.
- array_key_first 10mo ago
  I think it's a symptom of our work culture and lifestyle. When people are spending anywhere between 1-2 hours a day in a car going to a job that sucks the life out of them, I'm not surprised they don't have the energy to get food for themselves. Convenience services thrive in America because it's the only way the working class can claw back a teensy bit of time and energy. We could have had hybrid or even remote work, but that dream is dead. Traffic sucks, outside is loud and stinky, and you're in the office minimum 9 hours a day, 5 days a week. Minimum. I actually don't know anyone who works that little.
- BLKNSLVR 10mo ago
  Yep, if you think you're too busy to go out to get food yourself, then you've definitely been breathing in your own farts for too long.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > extend to which some people get food delivered is absurd More than getting uppity online about others' personal dining choices?
whyenot 10mo ago
Why are you assuming that a human would be more efficient and better for the environment than an electrically powered robot? It is very inefficient (approx 25%) to use food as an energy source, and humans are always burning energy. They can't turn off at night or when they are idle. I think it is very likely that the robot would be better for the environment than the person.
- recursive 10mo ago
  What does "good" for the environment even mean? I always assumed it means "good" for human purposes. But if we replace humans with robots, then the goodness of the environment seems somewhat moot. Oceans filled with plastic would be "good" for something. Just probably not us. Maybe robots?
- dweinus 10mo ago
  ...so, are assuming that the humans stop eating/existing after you replace them with a robot?
  - AmbroseBierce 10mo ago
    UBI maybe? I'm joking, at least when talking about America, because maybe at least one of those Nordic countries will figure it out.
    - dweinus 10mo ago
      Sweet, let's do that, but it still will be more environmentally friendly to bike the burrito down the block than to build & maintain a robot.
    - ipaddr 10mo ago
      UBI. $500 per adult per month (~$1.4T) - existing welfare. for $1000 per month it would cost $3.1T. What about the children? $1,200 for every adult + $400 for every child 4.1 trillion/year The federal budget is 6 trillion/year. There would need to be deflation for 1,200 a month to have the buying power of the average income now. Right now that's minimum wage.

alistairSH 10mo ago

All the more reason to build separate infrastructure for bicycles and other “in-between” vehicles.

derektank 10mo ago
Yeah, depending on the speed of these vehicles, it seems like bike lanes are the appropriate place for them. A smart city could even offer companies an opportunity to fund the buildout of additional bike lanes if there aren’t any existing in the neighborhood in question
- DSMan195276 10mo ago
  I think the problem is that if they're in the road their liability and required smarts go up a lot. Right now it sounds like they're at least partially relying on being the largest thing on the "road" and everyone else will naturally get out of their way.
- abdullahkhalids 10mo ago
  A slow moving robot on a sidewalk in the worst case makes it inconvenient for pedestrians, and robs the rights of those in wheelchairs etc. A medium speed robot in the bike lane in the worst case causes a fatal or broken-bone accident.
  - hombre_fatal 10mo ago
    True. I don't think they belong in bike lanes nor pedestrian-only sidewalks. These delivery companies are being subsidized by our already-limited pedestrian infrastructure. Also, no human should have to move out of the way or trip over some someone's burrito delivery robot.
    - arjie 10mo ago
      The point of infrastructure is to have a common substrate where members of society can provide services to each other. Sure, in some sense there are subsidies but we have to account for the positive externalities. After all, a tennis court has very low utilization of space so that's a "subsidy for rich guys to talk about crypto". And golf courses likewise. It's just not a meaningful way to think of infrastructure. The point of infrastructure is that it benefits society, and it will benefit some people more than others. Nice sidewalks benefit the rich people who live there more than they do the poor people who have to drive from the suburbs to work there. And this business about "have to move out of the way" is really a bit much. If they're impeding the disabled then that's of some significance, and ensuring that those who need wheelchair access can still get places is worth it, but any able-bodied person can easily step aside. I find the online reaction to so much of this stuff hard to fathom. Occasionally, I'll walk by a Lime / Bird scooter that's fallen over and I just pick it up and place it on the side. The net gain to society of having easy-to-access last-mile transportation is probably much greater than this happening occasionally. I really think these things are far overblown. But if you go online, you'd think that sidewalks are completely unwalkable. I principally walk and bike (now e-bike) places and this has never been a problem either in San Francisco or London - both cities where a large contingent has constantly insisted that it is.

Mistletoe 10mo ago

Imagine if the people ordering delivery actually moved their body and went and got the food.

echelon 10mo ago

Atlanta has been an early market for both scooters and various food delivery robots. Both have been a boon for the city. We've had these delivery robots for about six months now, and they've grown to the point where I see hundreds of delivery robots on the sidewalks each week. Scores of them daily. They're flooding our city, making the long commutes people don't want to. The reason this is great is that Atlanta's infrastructure is car-centric and spread too far apart to make walking or even biking make sense. The biking infrastructure we have does no good when it rains and you're twenty minutes from your destination. That same infrastructure also doesn't serve our children or our elderly. Or help when you're sick or tired and need a pick me up. It's easy to order for a group of people from one of these. To imagine the same group of four people hopping on bikes together to travel twenty minutes to food - that's never once happened in my life. Only certain types of people bike, and you'll invariably find yourself in groups with lots of non-cyclists. I feel that cyclist culture is bright eyed and idealistic, but not practical. You need a city designed around it, and all the people need to grow up loving it. These delivery robots, Waymo, Lime bikes - they're much more sensible middle grounds for cities like ours. Where people can't bike, or simply don't want to.

ipaddr 10mo ago
Why don't the delivery people bike and you can stay at home.
- echelon 10mo ago
  That would add $20/hr per biker, plus put the delivery folks at risk of bodily harm. Just so we can say we don't use robots?

smt88 10mo ago

The economies of scale of a 2,000 lb (electric) vehicle are probably such that they use far less carbon than an individual delivery robot on a per-delivery basis

hyperjeff 10mo ago

Bikes and scooters aren’t legal on sidewalks in Chicago, and these little robots are just clogging up what little pedestrian space still exists. Totally apart from the questionable ethics of gratuitously using tech for tasks that could be a job for someone.

tptacek 10mo ago
Wait, the first part I get: the robots are basically motor scooters, don't belong on sidewalks, sure. But the last bit, about "taking tasks that could be a job for someone" --- that's the lamplighter fallacy, isn't it?
HDThoreaun 10mo ago
As someone who has lived in chicago for 30 years I dont mind telling you that laws are not enforced here. Bikes and scooters not being legal on sidewalks has not stopped a single person from biking and scootering on the sidewalk