4 ms·

Europe Is Under Siege

46 points by alephnerd 11mo ago

mitchbob 11mo ago
Discussion yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46182986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46182986
GenerWork 11mo ago
It's kind of wild reading the writings of a neoliberal who wishes that the clock could be turned back to the Clinton or Obama administration. I think the worst part is that his own cherry picked quotes don't really support his thesis. His quote from the Economist doesn't even really focus on free trade, it focuses more on how China is outsmarting Europe.
- egberts1 11mo ago
  We'll pass on Clinton's NAFTA, in fact, we probably want to dismantle NAFTA nowadays given that it had created the massive Rust Belt in the Midwestern States of US.
ls612 11mo ago
All I can say as an American is that the Europeans did it to themselves. They have not been strategically serious countries for almost a century and have not had to compete with the rest of the world as a de facto US protectorate. Now they are discovering the consequences of spending 40% of their GDP on social programs.
- SilverElfin 11mo ago
  This criticism may be correct on its own, but I would say it still unbalanced because it leaves out some relevant things. America has a lot of debt and a lot of spending on social programs as well. There is debt everywhere - the federal government, states, cities, companies, and people. This will become a problem soon. It is propped up by the reserve currency status of the Dollar but that may go away before the end of this century or a lot sooner. Calling Europe a de facto US protectorate is also ignoring the fact that the US has a geographical advantage of being relatively separated from hostile world powers, which let it avoid most of the effects of the world wars - and that’s really pretty recent in historical terms. Is that really something America gets credit for, or is it just luck? Finally, the US had benefited a lot from immigration but the most vocal American voices that attack Europe seem to ignore this reality, and are also clamoring for a shutdown of programs like F1, H1B, etc. - despite half the biggest American companies being founded by immigrants or their children. If you glimpse into the future, is America any more “strategically serious” than Europe? Or is it just another has been that turns to racism and isolationism to deal with its problems?
  - anon291 11mo ago
    America has guns and is willing to use them which is really the only thing that matters. The issue with Europe is that they were idealistic enough to actually buy the whole 'rules' based foreign order nonsense while savvy people realized that rules and firepower mean the same thing to the guy holding the gun.
labrador 11mo ago
[flagged]
- alephnerd 11mo ago
  Most Americans don't follow Eurovision. In fact, ties to Europe are increasingly fringe - either alt-right "White Christendom" types or "I support Scandinavian socialism" types (yes ik Scandinavia is not socialist). A major reason cooperative Atlanticism emerged instead of a more hardline psudeo-colonial approach like the US took in Japan, SK, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, and Thailand during the 1950s-90s was because some of the most important foreign policy decisionmakers in mid-late 20th century America were 1.5 or 2nd Generation immigrants from Europe - think Kissinger (born and raised in Germany), Albright (born and raised in Czechia+Britan), or Brzezinski (born and raised in Poland+USSR) - and had some amount of sympathy for individual Europeans as a result. In the 2010s and onwards, most Americans (and especially those of us who worked on the Hill) either never had blood ties or have extremely distant blood ties to Europe. From a soft power perspective in the US, Asia and Latin American has a stronger foothold compared to much of Europe - Korean fashion like bucket hats are becoming common, Anime has become mainstream, and Reggaton and Latin Pop like that composed by Bad Bunny or Luis Fosi (Despacito) has become mainstream. And when European nations take a hard-right turn (eg. an AfD, RN, or Reform victory), when Democrats eventually return to power, we'd shun Europe as well because racism is still alive and well in plenty of Europe, and South Asian and Arab Americans are overrepresented in policymaking roles in both parties, and those of us who enter the space are very aware of how our ethnic peers are treated across the pond. There's a reason our parents immigrated here instead of London or Frankfurt. And that resentment bleeds into ambivalence/indifference about Europe.
- SilverElfin 11mo ago
  I agree that a man with a beard in a dress is shocking and perhaps even radicalizing to many or most people - not just in America but Europe itself. The trans issue remains a big controversy. But most Americans have probably never even heard of Eurovision. Maybe they saw a meme about it or something like that, but I don’t think this is what causes Americans to criticize Europe. In recent times, I would say the biggest topics are crimes committed in Europe by Islamic Arab refugees/immigrants (especially against women and minors), and attacks against American companies or free speech. There is a lot of truth and justification for Americans to be concerned about both these topics - but judging by the kind of things posted by Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and the web of politicians/businessmen connected to them, I would say a bit part of why Americans “hate” Europe is simply because they have been radicalized by the extremist rhetoric used by the people they follow or look up to.
SilverElfin 11mo ago
> On the economic front, China’s new economic strategy — a combination of shutting out European products, sending out a massive wave of subsidized exports, and putting export controls on rare earths — threatens to forcibly deindustrialize Europe This is definitely a problem. China wants to freely operate in foreign markets, but wants to also lock others out of their own market, or control their companies to a level where they can perform intellectual property theft, or commit straight up asymmetrical warfare (like cyberattacks). But competitiveness with China requires more than fixing those problems - it also requires plain old effort - and the culture of work and social safety nets in Europe (the pension problem mentioned in the article) are difficult to fix. Finally, I wonder who Europe can partner with now - not China, and obviously not America. Does that leave India as the only alternative? Because it doesn’t appear to me that European leaders or its citizens are very friendly towards them either. Maybe Southeast Asia or South America could also be partners. But the geopolitical strategy of Europe seems non existent. The American dependency has been destroyed but what fills that empty space?
- alephnerd 11mo ago
  > Does that leave India as the only alternative? > Because it doesn’t appear to me that European leaders or its citizens are very friendly towards them either There's a reason the EU is finalizing an FTA with India [0], with the backing of France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, and others. India also has a multiple veto in the EU now thanks to France, Greece [1], and Cyprus [2]. India is also heavily investing in France's MIC leading to Safran [3], Thales [4], and Dassault [5] transferring IP to Indian SoEs and setting up shop in India. But this inevitably gives India an indirect veto position like China and the US, because of India's hard anti-Turkiye stance aligns with Greece and Cyprus' national security needs (ambivalent/indifferent about Russia but antagonistic to Turkiye) and subsidizes a large portion of France's industrial base. Essentially, it allows India to use pressure on Greece and Cyprus to influence the EU the same way China uses pressure on Spain and Hungary to influence the EU, and the US uses the CEE and Ireland. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-eu-trade-talks-enter-crucial-phase-aiming-seal-deal-by-year-end-2025-09-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-eu-trade-talks-ent... [1] - https://www.eliamep.gr/en/syndeontas-efkairies-o-stratigikos-rolos-tis-elladas-ston-oikonomiko-diadromo-indias-mesis-anatolis-evropis-imec/ https://www.eliamep.gr/en/syndeontas-efkairies-o-stratigikos... [2] - https://m.kathimerini.com.cy/gr/politiki/ptb-endeixi-dynamikis-kyproy-indias-i-episimi-episkepsi-sti-xwra https://m.kathimerini.com.cy/gr/politiki/ptb-endeixi-dynamik... [3] - https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/safran-india-fighter-jet-engine-amca/ https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/safran-india-fighter-je... [4] - https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news-centre/press-releases/thales-and-bharat-dynamics-ltd-agree-initial-supply-man-portable-air https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news-centre/press-releases/th... [5] - https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/group/press/press-kits/dassault-aviation-partners-with-tata-advanced-systems-to-manufacture-rafale-fighter-aircraft-fuselage-for-india-and-other-global-markets/ https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/group/press/press-kits/...
geldedus 11mo ago
The US is allied with Russia, and doesn't even bother to hide it anymore. Been saying this since Agent Orange got elected
- alephnerd 11mo ago
  The US is aligned with the US. We don't have significant cultural ties with Europe on either the DNC or the GOP side anymore. The pivot to Asia began under Obama 16 years ago. Russia simply isn't viewed as a threat worth expending resources on given that China is across the Pacific. And the era of European born-and-raised foreign policy advisors like Kissinger, Albright, or Brzezinski is over. Most Americans in the 2020s either never had or lost close blood ties to Europe, so the sympathy that allowed Atlanticism to form instead of the more heavy-handed approach used in Asia doesn't exist anymore. A lot of Europeans (from policymakers all the way down to citizens) really overestimate how Americans view ties with Europe. We have stronger soft power relations with Asia or Latin America than we do with Europe now. If European nations like France, Germany, or the UK shift right, then when the Dems return to power they would also be cold-to-hostile to Europe.
  - whattheheckheck 11mo ago
    Democrats aren't gaining power again. It's either populist knife fighting social democrats or Trump again
    - DaSHacka 11mo ago
      Believe me, I wish that were true, but Trump's approval rating is in the low 40's right now. He's also obviously not making it to the next election, and JD Vance doesn't have nearly the same pull or unifying ability. I think it's much more likely the right wing splits into subfactions over the matter of Israel than having another red sweep like we saw this past election. It looks like dems are slowly pulling their heads out of their assess too, so there's a decent chance they'll be more unified come election night.
- aksss 11mo ago

46 points by alephnerd 11mo ago

Discussion yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46182986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46182986

It's kind of wild reading the writings of a neoliberal who wishes that the clock could be turned back to the Clinton or Obama administration. I think the worst part is that his own cherry picked quotes don't really support his thesis. His quote from the Economist doesn't even really focus on free trade, it focuses more on how China is outsmarting Europe.

egberts1 11mo ago
We'll pass on Clinton's NAFTA, in fact, we probably want to dismantle NAFTA nowadays given that it had created the massive Rust Belt in the Midwestern States of US.

ls612 11mo ago

All I can say as an American is that the Europeans did it to themselves. They have not been strategically serious countries for almost a century and have not had to compete with the rest of the world as a de facto US protectorate. Now they are discovering the consequences of spending 40% of their GDP on social programs.

SilverElfin 11mo ago
This criticism may be correct on its own, but I would say it still unbalanced because it leaves out some relevant things. America has a lot of debt and a lot of spending on social programs as well. There is debt everywhere - the federal government, states, cities, companies, and people. This will become a problem soon. It is propped up by the reserve currency status of the Dollar but that may go away before the end of this century or a lot sooner. Calling Europe a de facto US protectorate is also ignoring the fact that the US has a geographical advantage of being relatively separated from hostile world powers, which let it avoid most of the effects of the world wars - and that’s really pretty recent in historical terms. Is that really something America gets credit for, or is it just luck? Finally, the US had benefited a lot from immigration but the most vocal American voices that attack Europe seem to ignore this reality, and are also clamoring for a shutdown of programs like F1, H1B, etc. - despite half the biggest American companies being founded by immigrants or their children. If you glimpse into the future, is America any more “strategically serious” than Europe? Or is it just another has been that turns to racism and isolationism to deal with its problems?
- anon291 11mo ago
  America has guns and is willing to use them which is really the only thing that matters. The issue with Europe is that they were idealistic enough to actually buy the whole 'rules' based foreign order nonsense while savvy people realized that rules and firepower mean the same thing to the guy holding the gun.

labrador 11mo ago

[flagged]

alephnerd 11mo ago
Most Americans don't follow Eurovision. In fact, ties to Europe are increasingly fringe - either alt-right "White Christendom" types or "I support Scandinavian socialism" types (yes ik Scandinavia is not socialist). A major reason cooperative Atlanticism emerged instead of a more hardline psudeo-colonial approach like the US took in Japan, SK, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, and Thailand during the 1950s-90s was because some of the most important foreign policy decisionmakers in mid-late 20th century America were 1.5 or 2nd Generation immigrants from Europe - think Kissinger (born and raised in Germany), Albright (born and raised in Czechia+Britan), or Brzezinski (born and raised in Poland+USSR) - and had some amount of sympathy for individual Europeans as a result. In the 2010s and onwards, most Americans (and especially those of us who worked on the Hill) either never had blood ties or have extremely distant blood ties to Europe. From a soft power perspective in the US, Asia and Latin American has a stronger foothold compared to much of Europe - Korean fashion like bucket hats are becoming common, Anime has become mainstream, and Reggaton and Latin Pop like that composed by Bad Bunny or Luis Fosi (Despacito) has become mainstream. And when European nations take a hard-right turn (eg. an AfD, RN, or Reform victory), when Democrats eventually return to power, we'd shun Europe as well because racism is still alive and well in plenty of Europe, and South Asian and Arab Americans are overrepresented in policymaking roles in both parties, and those of us who enter the space are very aware of how our ethnic peers are treated across the pond. There's a reason our parents immigrated here instead of London or Frankfurt. And that resentment bleeds into ambivalence/indifference about Europe.
SilverElfin 11mo ago
I agree that a man with a beard in a dress is shocking and perhaps even radicalizing to many or most people - not just in America but Europe itself. The trans issue remains a big controversy. But most Americans have probably never even heard of Eurovision. Maybe they saw a meme about it or something like that, but I don’t think this is what causes Americans to criticize Europe. In recent times, I would say the biggest topics are crimes committed in Europe by Islamic Arab refugees/immigrants (especially against women and minors), and attacks against American companies or free speech. There is a lot of truth and justification for Americans to be concerned about both these topics - but judging by the kind of things posted by Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and the web of politicians/businessmen connected to them, I would say a bit part of why Americans “hate” Europe is simply because they have been radicalized by the extremist rhetoric used by the people they follow or look up to.

SilverElfin 11mo ago

> On the economic front, China’s new economic strategy — a combination of shutting out European products, sending out a massive wave of subsidized exports, and putting export controls on rare earths — threatens to forcibly deindustrialize Europe This is definitely a problem. China wants to freely operate in foreign markets, but wants to also lock others out of their own market, or control their companies to a level where they can perform intellectual property theft, or commit straight up asymmetrical warfare (like cyberattacks). But competitiveness with China requires more than fixing those problems - it also requires plain old effort - and the culture of work and social safety nets in Europe (the pension problem mentioned in the article) are difficult to fix. Finally, I wonder who Europe can partner with now - not China, and obviously not America. Does that leave India as the only alternative? Because it doesn’t appear to me that European leaders or its citizens are very friendly towards them either. Maybe Southeast Asia or South America could also be partners. But the geopolitical strategy of Europe seems non existent. The American dependency has been destroyed but what fills that empty space?

alephnerd 11mo ago
> Does that leave India as the only alternative? > Because it doesn’t appear to me that European leaders or its citizens are very friendly towards them either There's a reason the EU is finalizing an FTA with India [0], with the backing of France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, and others. India also has a multiple veto in the EU now thanks to France, Greece [1], and Cyprus [2]. India is also heavily investing in France's MIC leading to Safran [3], Thales [4], and Dassault [5] transferring IP to Indian SoEs and setting up shop in India. But this inevitably gives India an indirect veto position like China and the US, because of India's hard anti-Turkiye stance aligns with Greece and Cyprus' national security needs (ambivalent/indifferent about Russia but antagonistic to Turkiye) and subsidizes a large portion of France's industrial base. Essentially, it allows India to use pressure on Greece and Cyprus to influence the EU the same way China uses pressure on Spain and Hungary to influence the EU, and the US uses the CEE and Ireland. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-eu-trade-talks-enter-crucial-phase-aiming-seal-deal-by-year-end-2025-09-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-eu-trade-talks-ent... [1] - https://www.eliamep.gr/en/syndeontas-efkairies-o-stratigikos-rolos-tis-elladas-ston-oikonomiko-diadromo-indias-mesis-anatolis-evropis-imec/ https://www.eliamep.gr/en/syndeontas-efkairies-o-stratigikos... [2] - https://m.kathimerini.com.cy/gr/politiki/ptb-endeixi-dynamikis-kyproy-indias-i-episimi-episkepsi-sti-xwra https://m.kathimerini.com.cy/gr/politiki/ptb-endeixi-dynamik... [3] - https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/safran-india-fighter-jet-engine-amca/ https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/safran-india-fighter-je... [4] - https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news-centre/press-releases/thales-and-bharat-dynamics-ltd-agree-initial-supply-man-portable-air https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news-centre/press-releases/th... [5] - https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/group/press/press-kits/dassault-aviation-partners-with-tata-advanced-systems-to-manufacture-rafale-fighter-aircraft-fuselage-for-india-and-other-global-markets/ https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/group/press/press-kits/...

geldedus 11mo ago

The US is allied with Russia, and doesn't even bother to hide it anymore. Been saying this since Agent Orange got elected

alephnerd 11mo ago
The US is aligned with the US. We don't have significant cultural ties with Europe on either the DNC or the GOP side anymore. The pivot to Asia began under Obama 16 years ago. Russia simply isn't viewed as a threat worth expending resources on given that China is across the Pacific. And the era of European born-and-raised foreign policy advisors like Kissinger, Albright, or Brzezinski is over. Most Americans in the 2020s either never had or lost close blood ties to Europe, so the sympathy that allowed Atlanticism to form instead of the more heavy-handed approach used in Asia doesn't exist anymore. A lot of Europeans (from policymakers all the way down to citizens) really overestimate how Americans view ties with Europe. We have stronger soft power relations with Asia or Latin America than we do with Europe now. If European nations like France, Germany, or the UK shift right, then when the Dems return to power they would also be cold-to-hostile to Europe.
- whattheheckheck 11mo ago
  Democrats aren't gaining power again. It's either populist knife fighting social democrats or Trump again
  - DaSHacka 11mo ago
    Believe me, I wish that were true, but Trump's approval rating is in the low 40's right now. He's also obviously not making it to the next election, and JD Vance doesn't have nearly the same pull or unifying ability. I think it's much more likely the right wing splits into subfactions over the matter of Israel than having another red sweep like we saw this past election. It looks like dems are slowly pulling their heads out of their assess too, so there's a decent chance they'll be more unified come election night.
aksss 11mo ago