8 ms·
This feels like a dangerous game they're playing. Yes, there is some lock in, but competitors exist and are better than ever. The new "features" they're justify
by _lvbh 10mo ago
This feels like a dangerous game they're playing. Yes, there is some lock in, but competitors exist and are better than ever. The new "features" they're justifying this with (Copilot) isn't even something that most people want
- mc32 10mo agoGoogle was increasing their pricing too. Also before last year they were charging an extra license for Gemini but then decided to throw it in.
- emadb 10mo agoOther than Google, what are other competitors that worth evaluating?
- Bombthecat 10mo agoOpen source... But yeah.. ms won this game
- sneak 10mo agoThere is no foss competitor to Excel.
- ambicapter 10mo agoGoogle Docs works fine for most people though (not FOSS, but most Office customers don't care).
- mc32 10mo agoIt’s about the same price without the AzureAD stuff or AV integration even if substandard. Also Google emasculated its Google sites.
- aerostable_slug 10mo agoMy problem is the knee-jerk "Google will sell/read our data" that suggesting any of their suite seems to engender. It doesn't really matter what Google says in their contracts, too many executives trust them less than MSFT. Agreed that their actual products seem to work fine for almost everyone.
- croes 10mo agoBut for many of Excels use cases
- boh 10mo agoOpen Office, Libre Office, Only Office to start.
- embedding-shape 10mo agoI want to love these, mostly because they're FOSS and Office/Google Spreadsheets seems to get more and more bloated, and subsequently slower. But the UX is just a lot worse, and it isn't easy to go from one application to another because they're slightly different enough that your productivity takes a hit from all the small papercuts. I'm waiting for some FOSS spreadsheet solution that doesn't just try to copy Office, but comes up with something better. Then it'll feel like it's worth it to learn a whole new program and its UX, rather than just suffering through it because you wanna use FOSS.
- boh 10mo agoCheck out Only Office. It's an almost total copy of the 365 aesthetic.
- embedding-shape 10mo agoYeah, that's the opposite of what I want, then I'll just continue using Excel... What I want is for someone to figure out a better UI and better UX, not just copy what's out there.
- therealjumbo 10mo agoMy hot take on a better excel: the two things excel sucks at: version control and syncing. On the backend, separate the data and the logic in the spreadsheet and put each into version control. Then use something like syncthing to share documents with colleagues. You might also need something like bitmessage for initial handshake. Now you have a spreadsheet you can collaborate on in real time over the Internet or LAN without screwing around with a server, a google account, a credit card etc. There's two more things excel is horrible at: choice of extension language and being able to graduate your spreadsheet into a real program. You fix the extension language by using something like web assembly on the back end, and probably bundle one or more compilers to go from $lang to web assembly in order to be user friendly. Lastly you fix the last problem by virtue of doing all of the above. The second two features won't draw in new users much, so they're less important in the short run but make it a lot more sticky. I'm not in a place in life to put much free time into that project, and ideas are cheap ...
- richardlblair 10mo agoOr power point. I had to make some slides for the first time in a decade. I was in Google Slides for 5 minutes, then I tried to import an SVG. That was the moment I booted into windows for the first time in 4 months. I started up Power Point and sure enough SVGs are no problem.
- hoistbypetard 10mo agoFor legacy spreadsheets, you're 100% correct. I'll need to keep a version of Excel around forever. If they price me out of 365 by making me pay for Copilot shit I don't use or want, a perpetual license to Office 2019 runs about $20 and will do that job for me. For new work that I might have otherwise done in Excel, there are good options. Collabora works. Libre Office works. Google sheets works. And Grist is quite good, and self-hostable.
- moepstar 10mo ago> a perpetual license to Office 2019 runs about $20 and will do that job for me. Isn’t that only perpetual as long as the activation servers are up?
- hoistbypetard 10mo agoProbably. I meant "perpetual" as opposed to "subscription" but I agree with your concern.
- nottorp 10mo agoYou just stash a cracked version downloaded off some high seas site just in case.
- sneak 10mo agoNone of the things you listed are suitable replacements for Excel. None. It has nothing to do with existing files/compatibility. Excel is unparalleled.
- chris_wot 10mo agoCan it open Quattro Pro files?
- array_key_first 10mo agoThe solution is actually just not using Excel. If you're essentially using Excel as a LOB backend and database, that should probably not be in Excel. It's fine if you have a few formulas. As soon as you're busting out macros it's time to sunset the workbook and make an application. There's a lot of God Excel workbooks sitting around on share drives with no audibility or quality control.
- adornKey 10mo agoLibre Office Calc is pretty similar to Excel for general use. For importing csv files it has always been superior to Excel. Some niche areas in Calc are also better than Excel. Inflexible users are locked into Excel, but for general purpose use Calc is all you need.
- jimnotgym 10mo agoWhen developers tell me that I could use Calc rather than Excel, I ask them if they would be OK being forced to use Emacs or Vim, whichever is the opposite of what they spent the last decade perfecting.
- trollbridge 10mo agoLibre Office is great for replicating what Excel did 10 years ago. Excel has a lot of things that power users use (like Power Query) that Libre Office simply isn't even trying to replicate.
- breckognize 10mo agoShameless plug: Row Zero has real enterprise traction. AWS uses us. 2B row limit, connected, eliminates the Excel security risk because it's hosted.
- hoistbypetard 10mo agoZoho and Collabora spring immediately to mind.
- stackskipton 10mo agoZoho is crap. Sure, on the tin it comes with 64 different things, but many are poorly integrated and feature set is just enough to be like "Yes, we have that feature."
- DANmode 10mo agoAs of what date?
- stackskipton 10mo agoProbably been about 2 years since I was forced to last use it but with amount of slop being added, their development priorities would have to massively changed.
- DANmode 10mo agoGotcha - way more relevant than my experiences! Thanks
- hoistbypetard 10mo agoInteresting. I know I'm not a very demanding user of word processing or presentation software. But I've been using zoho for basic business stuff for one of my businesses since 2019, and I wouldn't call it crap. It's not amazing, but I pay something like $12/user/year. And I get shared docs/sheets/decks + pretty decent email. And their transactional email service (zeptomail) is actually top notch IMO. What missing integration makes you say "it's crap" and what do you consider a good version of that thing?
- vee-kay 10mo agoI am a home user, but I use Zoho's paid email service as a backup and alternative to Gmail and Outlook, and it is pretty decent and extremely affordable.
- croes 10mo agoFor which feature? How people in companies really need the features of Word, Excel and PowerPoint? I often see people using space to right align a date, the pros use tabs.
- basch 10mo agoCanva is a go to over Microsoft and Adobe for a huge crowd of people
- preisschild 10mo agoCollabora Online
- alternatex 10mo agoUnironically Proton. Seems like they are slowly building their own suite of office tools.
- SideburnsOfDoom 10mo agoCan I just get the version without CoPilot for cheaper? Or at all? Likely they'd charge more for it.
- jsheard 10mo agoI think the only way to get the no-Copilot version now is to already have the Copilot version and try to cancel your subscription, and only then they'll offer the "Classic" version sans Copilot as a last ditch retention effort. If users actually wanted this stuff they wouldn't need to bury the option to not pay for it.
- stOneskull 10mo agoaustralia recently sued microsoft over this.. saying they had to increase their prices but not mentioning that they could downgrade to a 'classic' subscription. totally misleading under australian consumer law.
- noosphr 10mo ago>How did you go bankrupt? Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.
- Aurornis 10mo agoBusiness basic goes from $6 to $7. Business premium is unchanged from $22 to $22. Price increases are normal. (I’ve been on HN long enough to remember when “raise your prices” was treated as the best startup advice around in HN comments) These price increases aren’t excessive relative to inflation for other services in a business context. I don’t see this as a dangerous game. > The new "features" they're justifying this with (Copilot) isn't even something that most people want Most people who comment on HN, maybe. Their average customer is probably demanding it and at risk of switching products if the AI integration is not as good as a competitor’s. The Venn diagram of their customer base and Hacker News commenters doesn’t have much overlap.
- bachmeier 10mo ago> Their average customer is probably demanding it and at risk of switching products if the AI integration is not as good as a competitor’s. There's no substance to this comment. It's pure speculation. If you actually want to look at evidence, look at the recent news that Microsoft has cut AI sales targets in half. > The Venn diagram of their customer base and Hacker News commenters doesn’t have much overlap. Ironic that you posted this as a comment on HN.
- Aurornis 10mo ago> Ironic that you posted this as a comment on HN. It’s not ironic at all. Posting here was deliberate to highlight the bubble that happens here for consumer products. This comment section has a lot of people evaluating these price hikes as if they were targeted at HN individual users, not for a product targeted at a different audiences and corporate subscriptions. Hacker News commenters are frequently unaware that their use cases and customer preferences do not reflect the average customer demand in the market. Remember when Dropbox was launched and the top comment was doubting its utility because they could replicate it with rsync and other commands duct taped together? That level of disconnectedness with the market is common in every thread about consumer products. As for AI demand: If you don’t think AI is in demand, you haven’t been looking at the explosive adoption of AI tools from ChatGPT to Sora (consistently high on app charts) by consumers. These products are in high demand, though you’d never know if it your only perspective was through upvoted HN stories and comments.
- boh 10mo agoMost of their enterprise clients get bundled services so it often still retains its competitive edge. Their Power suite, Teams and the existing integrations make it cost effective even with the increases.
- notepad0x90 10mo agoI wish I could agree with this, but the ecosystem lock-in is too great. They might lose business for sure but it may not put a dent in their revenue at all. If you replace office, you'll have to replace sharepoint, onedrive, etc.. and it isn't just the tools but the policies and critical features that go along with those. For most orgs, this is literally their lifeblood, not just some tool they can yank out. For smaller orgs it might be easier, but those don't pay Microsoft as much anyways. From a user point of view, there are tools that have similar features, some even better features. G-suite is the only platform i know of that unifies all the office productivity products like 365 does. But neither G-suite nor any other platform can be managed/policed as well as 365. At the end of the day, will Google behave any better than Microsoft anyways (cost or otherwise)? And it isn't just policing and management but securing all that precious data in there, Microsoft might not be great but lots of tech-debt has gone into securing it within that platform. A migration would be costly, justifying it with cost savings alone might be difficult.
- JohnFen 10mo ago> If you replace office, you'll have to replace sharepoint, onedrive, etc. At least in my workplace, people do their best to avoid using sharepoint and onedrive anyway.
- notepad0x90 10mo agoin corporate america, it's everywhere, to the point where people's compromised accounts being used to send phishing content via sharepoint/onedrive is extremely common. It is (rightfully) highly encouraged as well due to their built-in data loss prevention stuff (Microsoft information protection/MIP), it's the only reasonable way I've seen to get a handle on secret documents/content/slides from leaking too much.
- maxerickson 10mo agoAre there downsides to OneDrive? I can see being resistant to change, haven't had issues with it (and have benefitted from the auto save quite a lot).
- dfxm12 10mo agoIn my experience, most people, especially execs who are negotiating the licensing deals, want Copilot. Even if they are underwhelmed after using it, at that point, MS doesn't care. They already have your money.
- traceroute66 10mo ago> This feels like a dangerous game they're playing. Yes, there is some lock in, but competitors exist and are better than ever. Except there are not really any competitors if you look at the whole package. A Microsoft 365 Business Standard subscription, for example, gets you bundled Teams and Exchange. The fact you get the big-four (Word, Excel, Outlook and Powerpoint) thrown in is really just icing on the cake.
- ocdtrekkie 10mo agoTeams has annoyingly some lock in value for 365. Nobody should prefer Exchange Online over Exchange though, Microsoft is too unreliable of a service provider.
- jacquesm 10mo ago> A Microsoft 365 Business Standard subscription, for example, gets you bundled Teams and Exchange. That's a negative.
- trinix912 10mo agoFor end-users maybe, but for the business' IT who get a working mail server they don't have to mess with, and a whole remote work and videoconferencing package that "just works" and most people already know how to use, it's a hell of a deal.
- trollbridge 10mo agoKind of hard to understand what it does that Google Workspace + Zoom (or any other provider) doesn't? I'm seeing a very common pattern of Google Workspace + Google Meet, Zoom seats for people who need to remotely control computers, and then Slack or ones of its competitors for chat.
- wyre 10mo agoGoogle + Zoom + Slack is 3 separate accounts. Corporate only wants 1 account.
- sys_64738 10mo agoThe great unwashed masses will still continue to pay it. It's not a sizeable increases that they'd be willing to move elsewhere. People rationalize it in the context of it's only a buck a month and other things increase by more. M$ are not stupid but do know what they're doing. May take is. Don't do drugs. Don't do subscriptions. Don't do MICROS~1.
- jgerrish 10mo ago> This feels like a dangerous game they're playing. There are different types of danger in playing the "We are the Monsters" game that Microsoft and the US Intelligence agencies seem to love. There's the danger their allies in Europe like Germany running the Open Document Foundation aren't as powerful as they think. I'm sorry if that's the case and I wouldn't want to be making those calculations. But there's a different danger to normal US citizens just trying to live their fucking lives and build their life spreadsheet. It's so easy nowadays to fall into the trap of identifying more with European values, including digital data protection and open source. Or wanting to leave the country. But some people don't want to be forced out of their home when they're vulnerable. It hurts knowing we are seen as monsters ourselves and I don't blame that sentiment. But where will the next generation be shifted to? Launched to Europe after Canada? Then launched into Space? It's tied into the other social situations like public support for Luigi Mangione's actions and horrible calls for the death of political actors. You know it's a convenient way to demonize a large portion of the population and legally protect institutions like the FBI. Who does important work and is just doing their fucking job. That game isn't as dangerous for them. The cost to them is minimal, but huge for citizens stuck down here. It sucks. I really do love the work Microsoft has done in the past decade with LSP and developer experience.
- jgerrish 10mo agoI didn't mean to imply Germany isn't independent and at the same time we can't trust our allies. It's mostly that the monster game puts risk downstream too. And some have it really bad if you're going for citizenship. I know, it seems like it's just a fucking Office Suite.
- bangaladore 10mo agoIf you think there are competitors, you are clearly mistaken of what exactly O365 is. Nobody offers what Microsoft bundles here. From editors, to storage, to communication to identity to management. And I say this as someone who hates dealing with Microsoft and their products.