3 ms·

I am continually befuddled that people unironically believe government policy should enable people to be paid below the market rate for their labor. Raise thei

by Amezarak 11mo ago

I am continually befuddled that people unironically believe government policy should enable people to be paid below the market rate for their labor. Raise their pay!

jijijijij 11mo ago
Just in case you don't know, Germany gets a minimum wage of 13.90€/h (~16.20 USD) in 2026, and 14.60€/h (~17 USD) in 2027. Nurses aren't actually paid badly (they get paid above minimum wage), they usually don't complain/protest about wages. The problem stems from being understaffed and consequently bad working conditions. The core issues is hospitals being run like private businesses, which means they are not affording redundancy. It's a systemic problem with the medical system, which has little to do with wages, or immigration.
- Amezarak 11mo ago
  It doesn’t matter what the wages are, if there aren’t enough people willing to work for them, they aren’t high enough. That’s the core of labor markets. Importing migrants just worsens the underlying problem. You destroy your own pipeline and eventually run out of migrants. Germany needs to pay more and provide a better work environment instead of just finding people desperate enough it seems like a good deal. Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary. Crazy!
  - jijijijij 11mo ago
    > Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary, Where did you get this figure? 23.70€/h (~27.60 USD/h) apparently is the average wage for nurses. Working full-time, 38 hours per week, that's 46,831.2€ (54,492.34 USD) per year. Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Also typically there are 5-6 weeks of paid vacation per year. https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-in-der-pflege-so-viel-geld-bekommen-pflegekraefte-7-12-25-112756727 https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-...
    - Amezarak 11mo ago
      > Where did you get this figure? https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(R... I am happy to accept your figure of "slightly more than half" for the sake of this discussion. > Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. Nurses in the US also have half (or more) of costs like health insurance paid for by their employer - in that particular case, almost always much more than half. Half of Social Security retirement tax is paid for by the employer, but additional retirement payments beyond Social Security are usually much less than half. We can probably safely call this a wash. > It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Germany has overall notoriously high living costs. For instance, the electric rate my German friend is paying in east Germany is 4x(!!!![1]) my rate in the US, and she and her husband pay much more for a small apartment than I do a large house. On top of this, German housing often comes ludicrously unfurnished - most Americans would be surprised to learn that renters are often expected to provide their own kitchen. Germany certainly does not win out on housing costs. Nurses are underpaid. Pay nurses more. [1] I used to be baffled as to why Germans typically have no AC, only small appliances, often no clothesdryer, etc. Then after learning this I realized that for an average person, running American-style appliances would be totally unaffordable. Even lower class Americans will happily blow hundreds of dollars keeping their house at 60F in 95F degree heat while cooking in their electric oven and running their electric clothesdryer. While this results in "high" bills around $400 here, that'd be $1600 in Germany. You couldn't live like an American there. Even my personal "high" bills which sometimes approach $200 would cause me to cut back severely - $800 would be way too much.
      - jijijijij 11mo ago
        Jesus, you people are certainly something... > We can probably safely call this a wash. Does it tho? Cause in Germany there are no deductibles or co-pay. How many hours do your nurses work for the money? How man vacation days are included. Btw. the median income in Germany is 52,159 Euro. > Germany has overall notoriously high living costs. According to this site, US is 21% more expensive than Germany: https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/germany/united-states https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/germany/unite... > I used to be baffled as to why Germans typically have no AC, only small appliances, often no clothesdryer, etc. Then after learning this I realized that for an average person, running American-style appliances would be totally unaffordable. Are you comparing Idaho to Germany? Cause Californians have to pay more for electricity than Germans. 0.23€/kWh is the current price for electricity in Germany. We don't have ACs, because we got well insulated homes and live in a rather cold climate. Modern houses are equipped with heat pumps which can do both. Yes, we now widely heat houses with unaffordable electricity! https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/Strompreis-aktuell-So-viel-kosten-die-Kilowattstunden,strompreis182.html https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/Strompreis-aktuell-So-vi...

I am continually befuddled that people unironically believe government policy should enable people to be paid below the market rate for their labor. Raise their pay!

jijijijij 11mo ago

Just in case you don't know, Germany gets a minimum wage of 13.90€/h (~16.20 USD) in 2026, and 14.60€/h (~17 USD) in 2027. Nurses aren't actually paid badly (they get paid above minimum wage), they usually don't complain/protest about wages. The problem stems from being understaffed and consequently bad working conditions. The core issues is hospitals being run like private businesses, which means they are not affording redundancy. It's a systemic problem with the medical system, which has little to do with wages, or immigration.

Amezarak 11mo ago
It doesn’t matter what the wages are, if there aren’t enough people willing to work for them, they aren’t high enough. That’s the core of labor markets. Importing migrants just worsens the underlying problem. You destroy your own pipeline and eventually run out of migrants. Germany needs to pay more and provide a better work environment instead of just finding people desperate enough it seems like a good deal. Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary. Crazy!
- jijijijij 11mo ago
  > Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary, Where did you get this figure? 23.70€/h (~27.60 USD/h) apparently is the average wage for nurses. Working full-time, 38 hours per week, that's 46,831.2€ (54,492.34 USD) per year. Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Also typically there are 5-6 weeks of paid vacation per year. https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-in-der-pflege-so-viel-geld-bekommen-pflegekraefte-7-12-25-112756727 https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-...
  - Amezarak 11mo ago
    > Where did you get this figure? https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(R... I am happy to accept your figure of "slightly more than half" for the sake of this discussion. > Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. Nurses in the US also have half (or more) of costs like health insurance paid for by their employer - in that particular case, almost always much more than half. Half of Social Security retirement tax is paid for by the employer, but additional retirement payments beyond Social Security are usually much less than half. We can probably safely call this a wash. > It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Germany has overall notoriously high living costs. For instance, the electric rate my German friend is paying in east Germany is 4x(!!!![1]) my rate in the US, and she and her husband pay much more for a small apartment than I do a large house. On top of this, German housing often comes ludicrously unfurnished - most Americans would be surprised to learn that renters are often expected to provide their own kitchen. Germany certainly does not win out on housing costs. Nurses are underpaid. Pay nurses more. [1] I used to be baffled as to why Germans typically have no AC, only small appliances, often no clothesdryer, etc. Then after learning this I realized that for an average person, running American-style appliances would be totally unaffordable. Even lower class Americans will happily blow hundreds of dollars keeping their house at 60F in 95F degree heat while cooking in their electric oven and running their electric clothesdryer. While this results in "high" bills around $400 here, that'd be $1600 in Germany. You couldn't live like an American there. Even my personal "high" bills which sometimes approach $200 would cause me to cut back severely - $800 would be way too much.
    - jijijijij 11mo ago
      Jesus, you people are certainly something... > We can probably safely call this a wash. Does it tho? Cause in Germany there are no deductibles or co-pay. How many hours do your nurses work for the money? How man vacation days are included. Btw. the median income in Germany is 52,159 Euro. > Germany has overall notoriously high living costs. According to this site, US is 21% more expensive than Germany: https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/germany/united-states https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/germany/unite... > I used to be baffled as to why Germans typically have no AC, only small appliances, often no clothesdryer, etc. Then after learning this I realized that for an average person, running American-style appliances would be totally unaffordable. Are you comparing Idaho to Germany? Cause Californians have to pay more for electricity than Germans. 0.23€/kWh is the current price for electricity in Germany. We don't have ACs, because we got well insulated homes and live in a rather cold climate. Modern houses are equipped with heat pumps which can do both. Yes, we now widely heat houses with unaffordable electricity! https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/Strompreis-aktuell-So-viel-kosten-die-Kilowattstunden,strompreis182.html https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/Strompreis-aktuell-So-vi...