4 ms·

This is wrong. I used to work in cafes when I still lived in the city and two locations where close to hospitals and everyone I talked to complained about the r

This is wrong. I used to work in cafes when I still lived in the city and two locations where close to hospitals and everyone I talked to complained about the risk of employing people with huge language barriers (mostly Ukrainians and Syrians from what I heard) in health related jobs because it has dire consequences if something gets lost in translation. No one of the higher ups cared and they just had to deal with while already being underpaid, overworked and exhausted.

nicbou 11mo ago
There just isn't enough people who are local and want to do this job for this pay. This happens in Germany but also in my home country. In Germany there is a whole industry around recruiting foreign nurses. I work in immigration and a few of my colleagues specialise in that. There are websites and initiatives just for that. It will get worse. This population is aging.
- jasonvorhe 11mo ago
  That's only half true. You have lots of trained and experienced people willing to do this job despite the low pay because some of these people wouldn't function in a field where they couldn't help other people, even if they sacrifice their own health and financial situation for it. The issue lies with state subsidies for employing refugees which currently mainly targets Ukrainian workers, though they'll never outright say it: https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/unternehmen/arbeitskraefte/gefluechtete-beschaeftigen/foerderung-gefluechtete https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/unternehmen/arbeitskraefte/gef... If you have a job to offer you can now decide if you pay a German out of your own pocket or if you hire a Ukrainian who will end up being cheaper for you because the state supports you in doing so. Have seen this with bicycle mechanics, nurses, nursery homes, lots and lots of cafés. Goes without saying that I like Ukrainian people just as much as I like Germans, Syrians, Iranians, Russians, etc.
- Amezarak 11mo ago
  I am continually befuddled that people unironically believe government policy should enable people to be paid below the market rate for their labor. Raise their pay!
  - jijijijij 11mo ago
    Just in case you don't know, Germany gets a minimum wage of 13.90€/h (~16.20 USD) in 2026, and 14.60€/h (~17 USD) in 2027. Nurses aren't actually paid badly (they get paid above minimum wage), they usually don't complain/protest about wages. The problem stems from being understaffed and consequently bad working conditions. The core issues is hospitals being run like private businesses, which means they are not affording redundancy. It's a systemic problem with the medical system, which has little to do with wages, or immigration.
    - Amezarak 11mo ago
      It doesn’t matter what the wages are, if there aren’t enough people willing to work for them, they aren’t high enough. That’s the core of labor markets. Importing migrants just worsens the underlying problem. You destroy your own pipeline and eventually run out of migrants. Germany needs to pay more and provide a better work environment instead of just finding people desperate enough it seems like a good deal. Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary. Crazy!
      - jijijijij 11mo ago
        > Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary, Where did you get this figure? 23.70€/h (~27.60 USD/h) apparently is the average wage for nurses. Working full-time, 38 hours per week, that's 46,831.2€ (54,492.34 USD) per year. Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Also typically there are 5-6 weeks of paid vacation per year. https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-in-der-pflege-so-viel-geld-bekommen-pflegekraefte-7-12-25-112756727 https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-...
        Amezarak 11mo ago
        > Where did you get this figure? https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(R... I am happy to accept your figure of "slightly more than half" for the sake of this discussion. > Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. Nurses in the US also have half (or more) of costs like health insurance paid for by their employer - in that particular case, almost always much more than half. Half of Social Security retirement tax is paid for by the employer, but additional retirement payments beyond Social Security are usually much less than half. We can probably safely call this a wash. > It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Germany has overall notoriously high living costs. For instance, the electric rate my German friend is paying in east Germany is 4x(!!!![1]) my rate in the US, and she and her husband pay much more for a small apartment than I do a large house. On top of this, German housing often comes ludicrously unfurnished - most Americans would be surprised to learn that renters are often expected to provide their own kitchen. Germany certainly does not win out on housing costs. Nurses are underpaid. Pay nurses more. [1] I used to be baffled as to why Germans typically have no AC, only small appliances, often no clothesdryer, etc. Then after learning this I realized that for an average person, running American-style appliances would be totally unaffordable. Even lower class Americans will happily blow hundreds of dollars keeping their house at 60F in 95F degree heat while cooking in their electric oven and running their electric clothesdryer. While this results in "high" bills around $400 here, that'd be $1600 in Germany. You couldn't live like an American there. Even my personal "high" bills which sometimes approach $200 would cause me to cut back severely - $800 would be way too much.
- nsoqm 11mo ago
  And the solution to low salaries is... is increasing the supply of labour?
  - nicbou 11mo ago
    Correct. It's not great from a labour perspective, but I don't think the goal is wage dumping. I believe the goal is to meet the demand with the available means.

nicbou 11mo ago

There just isn't enough people who are local and want to do this job for this pay. This happens in Germany but also in my home country. In Germany there is a whole industry around recruiting foreign nurses. I work in immigration and a few of my colleagues specialise in that. There are websites and initiatives just for that. It will get worse. This population is aging.

jasonvorhe 11mo ago
That's only half true. You have lots of trained and experienced people willing to do this job despite the low pay because some of these people wouldn't function in a field where they couldn't help other people, even if they sacrifice their own health and financial situation for it. The issue lies with state subsidies for employing refugees which currently mainly targets Ukrainian workers, though they'll never outright say it: https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/unternehmen/arbeitskraefte/gefluechtete-beschaeftigen/foerderung-gefluechtete https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/unternehmen/arbeitskraefte/gef... If you have a job to offer you can now decide if you pay a German out of your own pocket or if you hire a Ukrainian who will end up being cheaper for you because the state supports you in doing so. Have seen this with bicycle mechanics, nurses, nursery homes, lots and lots of cafés. Goes without saying that I like Ukrainian people just as much as I like Germans, Syrians, Iranians, Russians, etc.
Amezarak 11mo ago
I am continually befuddled that people unironically believe government policy should enable people to be paid below the market rate for their labor. Raise their pay!
- jijijijij 11mo ago
  Just in case you don't know, Germany gets a minimum wage of 13.90€/h (~16.20 USD) in 2026, and 14.60€/h (~17 USD) in 2027. Nurses aren't actually paid badly (they get paid above minimum wage), they usually don't complain/protest about wages. The problem stems from being understaffed and consequently bad working conditions. The core issues is hospitals being run like private businesses, which means they are not affording redundancy. It's a systemic problem with the medical system, which has little to do with wages, or immigration.
  - Amezarak 11mo ago
    It doesn’t matter what the wages are, if there aren’t enough people willing to work for them, they aren’t high enough. That’s the core of labor markets. Importing migrants just worsens the underlying problem. You destroy your own pipeline and eventually run out of migrants. Germany needs to pay more and provide a better work environment instead of just finding people desperate enough it seems like a good deal. Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary. Crazy!
    - jijijijij 11mo ago
      > Edit: I just checked and the average German nurse salary is (43k in USD vs 88k USD) less than half the average US RN salary, Where did you get this figure? 23.70€/h (~27.60 USD/h) apparently is the average wage for nurses. Working full-time, 38 hours per week, that's 46,831.2€ (54,492.34 USD) per year. Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Also typically there are 5-6 weeks of paid vacation per year. https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-in-der-pflege-so-viel-geld-bekommen-pflegekraefte-7-12-25-112756727 https://www.allgaeuer-zeitung.de/pflege/durchschnittsgehalt-...
      - Amezarak 11mo ago
        > Where did you get this figure? https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Registered_Nurse_(R... I am happy to accept your figure of "slightly more than half" for the sake of this discussion. > Mind you, half of socialized costs, like health insurance is payed by the employer, so you need to adjust figures accordingly. Nurses in the US also have half (or more) of costs like health insurance paid for by their employer - in that particular case, almost always much more than half. Half of Social Security retirement tax is paid for by the employer, but additional retirement payments beyond Social Security are usually much less than half. We can probably safely call this a wash. > It's of course a totally ridiculous comparison without adjusting for living costs, etc.. Germany has overall notoriously high living costs. For instance, the electric rate my German friend is paying in east Germany is 4x(!!!![1]) my rate in the US, and she and her husband pay much more for a small apartment than I do a large house. On top of this, German housing often comes ludicrously unfurnished - most Americans would be surprised to learn that renters are often expected to provide their own kitchen. Germany certainly does not win out on housing costs. Nurses are underpaid. Pay nurses more. [1] I used to be baffled as to why Germans typically have no AC, only small appliances, often no clothesdryer, etc. Then after learning this I realized that for an average person, running American-style appliances would be totally unaffordable. Even lower class Americans will happily blow hundreds of dollars keeping their house at 60F in 95F degree heat while cooking in their electric oven and running their electric clothesdryer. While this results in "high" bills around $400 here, that'd be $1600 in Germany. You couldn't live like an American there. Even my personal "high" bills which sometimes approach $200 would cause me to cut back severely - $800 would be way too much.
nsoqm 11mo ago
And the solution to low salaries is... is increasing the supply of labour?
- nicbou 11mo ago
  Correct. It's not great from a labour perspective, but I don't think the goal is wage dumping. I believe the goal is to meet the demand with the available means.