3 ms·

The article is using "voluntary" in a very questionable fashion. > Germany's parliament, the Bundestag, has voted to introduce voluntary military service... >

The article is using "voluntary" in a very questionable fashion. > Germany's parliament, the Bundestag, has voted to introduce voluntary military service... > The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women. > The government says military service will be voluntary for as long as possible, but from July 2027, all 18-year-old men will have to take a medical exam to assess their fitness for possible military service. > a form of compulsory military service could be considered by the Bundestag. Well, that escalated quickly. There's nothing here that could be really described as "voluntary".

baal80spam 11mo ago
> The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal
- JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
  One, I'm not sure what American founding ideals have to do with Germany. Two, Germany, like most countries and frankly human populations, has a male surplus in its fighting-age population [1]. This is why, historically, large socities tended to wage war with men first. (Even those that e.g. held elite units in reserve, which undermines the usual biological argument.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Population_Pyramid_2024.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media...
  - throw310822 11mo ago
    The male surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army; and no, that is not the reason why men and not women go to war.
    - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
      > make surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army ...why would you populate your army solely with the surplus? The point is you have a buffer that you can burn without immediately impacting your demographics for the long term. > that is not the reason why men and not women go to war It's a serious theory [1]. (It's more correct to say the surplus and it share a common cause.) [1] https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931 https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931
    - carlosjobim 11mo ago
      The reason for war has always been to kill off young men, since they are disposable fertility wise and an internal threat to current holders of power. This has been the case since the stone age and will be the case until the end of time.
      - guenthert 11mo ago
        That was the topic of T.H.E.M. by G.C. Edmonson (or so I remember -- I read the translation "Die A.N.D.E.R.E.N." many years ago). Made for a good story, reality is a bit more complex methinks. There's after all a lot of money to be made with war.
        carlosjobim 11mo ago
        Money is nothing but a representation of power. If it was about money itself, rulers could just print limitless amounts (which they have tried a number of times).
        IAmBroom 11mo ago
        You really don't understand a lot of things you are talking about.
  - throwawaypath 11mo ago
    >has a male surplus in its fighting-age population The "male surplus fighting-age population" in Germany will flee to the next European host or back to the MENA country they fled from if conscription begins.
- crooked-v 11mo ago
  Registration is compulsory, but actual military service is voluntary (for now). In other words, it's functionally the same as Selective Service forms in the US.
- qball 11mo ago
  All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
fabian2k 11mo ago
Military service was only recently abolished in Germany. And compared to the old system, this one would qualify as voluntary for now. This might not remain that way, but that's probably an issue to discuss if and when that happens. There's all kinds of other challenges at that point, and I think at that point challenges based on fairness could be valid (as only some people are drafted, not everyone).
- aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
  > Military service was only recently abolished in Germany. Military service was never abolished in Germany. It was only suspended in 2011 (and lots of people were celebrating even this small improvement).
ekianjo 11mo ago
> There's nothing here that could be really described as "voluntary". that's the same "voluntary" they use for Chat Control, by the way.
akimbostrawman 11mo ago
>mandatory for men and voluntary for women. this is what "patriarchy" actually looks like but you sure won't see anybody on the left complain about that....
- jadamson 11mo ago
  For the past decade or more, the people that drone on about male privilege were arguing conscription would never happen again so it didn't matter. They knew they were telling a lie then, they'll just come up with a new one now.
- OKRainbowKid 11mo ago
  Plenty of people are complaining, and we currently have a right-wing government. Your username is quite apt.
  - ImJamal 11mo ago
    I think he is saying nobody on the left is complaining about how it is mandatory for men, but voluntary for women making it a sexist policy. People might be complaining about it is happening overall, but not about the sexist part.
    - mystraline 11mo ago
      Every leftist org ive interacted with places cis-males basically lower status than anyone else. Ive even had that used around me as a slur, almost like they dont really understand. Attacking people just because they are cis- and AMAB (assigned male as birth) isn't bad. Its your actions that determine good or bad. And, throwing men into a potential meat grinder of war is unethical. Frankly, it should all be actual volunteer, and not this doublespeak shit of voluntarily required. Theres also this now public problem. Do trans-women count as men or women? And do trans-men count as men or women? The best answer is "volunteer". But governments are weird, especially the conservative/fascist adjacent ones.
      - 11mo ago
coolThingsFirst 11mo ago
We just pretended the genders were equal in a time of plenty now time to face the reality.

baal80spam 11mo ago

> The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
One, I'm not sure what American founding ideals have to do with Germany. Two, Germany, like most countries and frankly human populations, has a male surplus in its fighting-age population [1]. This is why, historically, large socities tended to wage war with men first. (Even those that e.g. held elite units in reserve, which undermines the usual biological argument.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Population_Pyramid_2024.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media...
- throw310822 11mo ago
  The male surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army; and no, that is not the reason why men and not women go to war.
  - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
    > make surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army ...why would you populate your army solely with the surplus? The point is you have a buffer that you can burn without immediately impacting your demographics for the long term. > that is not the reason why men and not women go to war It's a serious theory [1]. (It's more correct to say the surplus and it share a common cause.) [1] https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931 https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931
  - carlosjobim 11mo ago
    The reason for war has always been to kill off young men, since they are disposable fertility wise and an internal threat to current holders of power. This has been the case since the stone age and will be the case until the end of time.
    - guenthert 11mo ago
      That was the topic of T.H.E.M. by G.C. Edmonson (or so I remember -- I read the translation "Die A.N.D.E.R.E.N." many years ago). Made for a good story, reality is a bit more complex methinks. There's after all a lot of money to be made with war.
      - carlosjobim 11mo ago
        Money is nothing but a representation of power. If it was about money itself, rulers could just print limitless amounts (which they have tried a number of times).
        IAmBroom 11mo ago
        You really don't understand a lot of things you are talking about.
- throwawaypath 11mo ago
  >has a male surplus in its fighting-age population The "male surplus fighting-age population" in Germany will flee to the next European host or back to the MENA country they fled from if conscription begins.
crooked-v 11mo ago
Registration is compulsory, but actual military service is voluntary (for now). In other words, it's functionally the same as Selective Service forms in the US.
qball 11mo ago
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

fabian2k 11mo ago

Military service was only recently abolished in Germany. And compared to the old system, this one would qualify as voluntary for now. This might not remain that way, but that's probably an issue to discuss if and when that happens. There's all kinds of other challenges at that point, and I think at that point challenges based on fairness could be valid (as only some people are drafted, not everyone).

aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
> Military service was only recently abolished in Germany. Military service was never abolished in Germany. It was only suspended in 2011 (and lots of people were celebrating even this small improvement).

ekianjo 11mo ago

> There's nothing here that could be really described as "voluntary". that's the same "voluntary" they use for Chat Control, by the way.

akimbostrawman 11mo ago

>mandatory for men and voluntary for women. this is what "patriarchy" actually looks like but you sure won't see anybody on the left complain about that....

jadamson 11mo ago
For the past decade or more, the people that drone on about male privilege were arguing conscription would never happen again so it didn't matter. They knew they were telling a lie then, they'll just come up with a new one now.
OKRainbowKid 11mo ago
Plenty of people are complaining, and we currently have a right-wing government. Your username is quite apt.
- ImJamal 11mo ago
  I think he is saying nobody on the left is complaining about how it is mandatory for men, but voluntary for women making it a sexist policy. People might be complaining about it is happening overall, but not about the sexist part.
  - mystraline 11mo ago
    Every leftist org ive interacted with places cis-males basically lower status than anyone else. Ive even had that used around me as a slur, almost like they dont really understand. Attacking people just because they are cis- and AMAB (assigned male as birth) isn't bad. Its your actions that determine good or bad. And, throwing men into a potential meat grinder of war is unethical. Frankly, it should all be actual volunteer, and not this doublespeak shit of voluntarily required. Theres also this now public problem. Do trans-women count as men or women? And do trans-men count as men or women? The best answer is "volunteer". But governments are weird, especially the conservative/fascist adjacent ones.
    - 11mo ago

coolThingsFirst 11mo ago

We just pretended the genders were equal in a time of plenty now time to face the reality.