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“The change means that all 18-year-olds in Germany will be sent a questionnaire from January 2026 asking if they are interested and willing to join the armed fo

“The change means that all 18-year-olds in Germany will be sent a questionnaire from January 2026 asking if they are interested and willing to join the armed forces. The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.“ - all men have to fill out and return a form, I suppose this will work to increase recruitment. Doesn’t seem very controversial.

throw310822 11mo ago
Why do they have to fill it in and return it just to say no? Could this be used against them at some time in the future? And why women instead can just ignore it? Usually HN is very wary of the consequences of the state collecting data about its citizens and restricting freedoms in small steps. Is it not the case now?
- throwaway2027 11mo ago
  When push comes to shove, men and women aren't equal
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - mystraline 11mo ago
    No, to a bunch of neoliberal elite politicians, women aren't equal. And those same politicians won't ever serve, nor compulsed to serve, and/or will shield their families from serving unless they really want to. But let's call it what it is: compulsed military service is slavery for the elite.
  - nothercastle 11mo ago
    When it comes to being drone operators or targets it’s probably a negligible difference
    - Balgair 11mo ago
      Actually you make a good point here. Women have better reaction times then men, so female drone operators, all else being equal, may be better at the job.
      - jadamson 11mo ago
        [flagged]
      - jeffrallen 11mo ago
        In my village's shooting club the women shoot just as well at the men, and quite a bit more consistently as well.
        nothercastle 11mo ago
        It’s mostly about ability to haul and dig as I understand it. I roles where you don’t need that as much strength is significantly less important
      - wtcactus 11mo ago
        Source?
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - platevoltage 11mo ago
    The hand to hand combat, super common in modern warfare, should probably be left up to the men. Great point.
  - c0balt 11mo ago
    to add to this, under German law they very much are different in regards to mandatory military service. Neither the old nor the new laws contain mandatory military service for women leading to mandatory conscription being only an issue for men.
- fabian2k 11mo ago
  Mandatory military service existed before in Germany, not all that long ago. So this is mostly returned to the same mechanisms as back then, though with the actual service being voluntary for now. And to include woman you'd have to change the constitution, as that part is specific to men.
alistairSH 11mo ago
They only recently (2011?) ended mandatory conscription so this is a pretty big about-face.
- aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
  Compulsory military service (or alternative national service) never ended in Germany; in 2011 it was only suspended.
  - alistairSH 11mo ago
    I don’t know the details… does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft?
    - aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
      > does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? I don't know how the Selective Service requirement in the US works, so I can't answer this question. > Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft? Such a (temporary) suspension can hypothetically terminated at any time by the government. The question is basically how the population will react. I guess if the suspension of the general conscription would be terminated by the government, there would be really furious public rallies (and I am rather certain that my boss would immediately attempt to approve a vacation request if I wanted to attend such a rally in Berlin if it happened during the work week - just as an "innocent" kind of support for this cause from behind the lines :-) ) because multiple generations got really radicalized against compulsory military service (I wrote about this topic at https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 ). This is why the German government currently attempts to approach the whole topic of quitting the suspension of compulsory military service so indirectly.
      - alistairSH 11mo ago
fasbiner 11mo ago
This may be too far of an obscure historical reference, but is there really nothing specific to German history and nothing within german civic education and contemporary national identity formation that might make this potentially more controversial? Hint:some of these events involved spheres of influence and control over resources in eastern europe!
- aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
  I think the much bigger issue is that the older generation (those who, say, turned 18 in the 70s) told the younger generation lots of really nasty stories about the cruel trials people had to endure who wanted to do alternative national service (Zivildienst) instead of military service. These formed the value system of many people in at least two generations ("Soldaten sind Mörder" [soldiers are murders]). EDIT: If you understand German, here is a song from 1972 about these brutal cross-examinations: > Franz Josef Degenhardt - Befragung eines Kriegsdienstverweigerers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 Additionally, the participation of Germany in the first aggressive wars in Yugoslavia in 1999 and then in Afghanistan from 2001 on (before citizens were told that the Bundeswehr is only a defense army, and would never participate in an aggressive war) lead to a radicalization of another generation against the Bundeswehr - and yes, this generation eagerly listened to the above-mentioned horror stories of the older generations. It is even rumored that this next generation's radicalization against the Bundeswehr indirectly lead to the suspension of the compulsory military service in Germany in 2011.
  - fasbiner 11mo ago
    That's certainly some nuance there! I had in mind a more basic concept which due to legal restrictions in Germany maybe make thinking about it as part of German history and a geopolitical conflict likely to naturally reoccur is part of a Denkverbot. But I think you should legally be able to answer if you can think of anything between 1914 and 1945 that is taught to Germans in schools that might cause younger Germans to feel some aversion towards preparing to fight a land war against russia in eastern ukraine? Anything that maybe resulted in the premature deaths of millions of young german men, initially volunteers who were solicited at the secondary school level? Massive political differences and ultimate outcomes aside for each conflict, Germany becoming increasingly militarized has a poor track record when it comes to not getting extremely large numbers of teenage german boys killed in eastern Ukraine.
le-mark 11mo ago
Eighteen year olds in the US have to fill out a “selective services” form. This was for the draft, and continues in case the draft is ever reinstated. So in peace time not problem, in wartime? Different story.
- huhkerrf 11mo ago
  Correction: Eighteen year old men have to register. Women don't.
m000 11mo ago
The problem here that this probably is only part of a larger society militarization plan. The guaranteed next step is to offer the volunteers a long term paid contract at the end of their term. This would probably be well above what they would be paid elsewhere (young men with no university degree, desperate enough to volunteer in the first place). Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society. What could possibly go wrong?
- JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
  > Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Austria, Brazil, Chile, Mexico and Thailand each have active conscription [1]. The slippery slop you describe is far from inevitable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription
  - m000 11mo ago
    You probably have no idea what you're talking about. Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary. It's more of a semi-unpleasant mandatory intermission in your life plans. Also, if you have decades of mandatory conscription then there is no slope to slip. Germany on the other hand is now on a slope, since they regress from a fully professional army back to conscription. How much down they will slip, remains to be seen.
    - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
      > Mandatory conscription Active != mandatory. > Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary You're seriously arguing that countries with mandatory conscription are less militarised than those with active (but not mandatory) conscription?
anonym29 11mo ago
Has a standing army of angry young men, resentful at their economic circumstances in Germany ever historically caused any problems?

throw310822 11mo ago

Why do they have to fill it in and return it just to say no? Could this be used against them at some time in the future? And why women instead can just ignore it? Usually HN is very wary of the consequences of the state collecting data about its citizens and restricting freedoms in small steps. Is it not the case now?

throwaway2027 11mo ago
When push comes to shove, men and women aren't equal
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- mystraline 11mo ago
  No, to a bunch of neoliberal elite politicians, women aren't equal. And those same politicians won't ever serve, nor compulsed to serve, and/or will shield their families from serving unless they really want to. But let's call it what it is: compulsed military service is slavery for the elite.
- nothercastle 11mo ago
  When it comes to being drone operators or targets it’s probably a negligible difference
  - Balgair 11mo ago
    Actually you make a good point here. Women have better reaction times then men, so female drone operators, all else being equal, may be better at the job.
    - jadamson 11mo ago
      [flagged]
    - jeffrallen 11mo ago
      In my village's shooting club the women shoot just as well at the men, and quite a bit more consistently as well.
      - nothercastle 11mo ago
        It’s mostly about ability to haul and dig as I understand it. I roles where you don’t need that as much strength is significantly less important
    - wtcactus 11mo ago
      Source?
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- platevoltage 11mo ago
  The hand to hand combat, super common in modern warfare, should probably be left up to the men. Great point.
- c0balt 11mo ago
  to add to this, under German law they very much are different in regards to mandatory military service. Neither the old nor the new laws contain mandatory military service for women leading to mandatory conscription being only an issue for men.
fabian2k 11mo ago
Mandatory military service existed before in Germany, not all that long ago. So this is mostly returned to the same mechanisms as back then, though with the actual service being voluntary for now. And to include woman you'd have to change the constitution, as that part is specific to men.

alistairSH 11mo ago

They only recently (2011?) ended mandatory conscription so this is a pretty big about-face.

aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
Compulsory military service (or alternative national service) never ended in Germany; in 2011 it was only suspended.
- alistairSH 11mo ago
  I don’t know the details… does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft?
  - aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
    > does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? I don't know how the Selective Service requirement in the US works, so I can't answer this question. > Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft? Such a (temporary) suspension can hypothetically terminated at any time by the government. The question is basically how the population will react. I guess if the suspension of the general conscription would be terminated by the government, there would be really furious public rallies (and I am rather certain that my boss would immediately attempt to approve a vacation request if I wanted to attend such a rally in Berlin if it happened during the work week - just as an "innocent" kind of support for this cause from behind the lines :-) ) because multiple generations got really radicalized against compulsory military service (I wrote about this topic at https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 ). This is why the German government currently attempts to approach the whole topic of quitting the suspension of compulsory military service so indirectly.
    - alistairSH 11mo ago

fasbiner 11mo ago

This may be too far of an obscure historical reference, but is there really nothing specific to German history and nothing within german civic education and contemporary national identity formation that might make this potentially more controversial? Hint:some of these events involved spheres of influence and control over resources in eastern europe!

aleph_minus_one 11mo ago
I think the much bigger issue is that the older generation (those who, say, turned 18 in the 70s) told the younger generation lots of really nasty stories about the cruel trials people had to endure who wanted to do alternative national service (Zivildienst) instead of military service. These formed the value system of many people in at least two generations ("Soldaten sind Mörder" [soldiers are murders]). EDIT: If you understand German, here is a song from 1972 about these brutal cross-examinations: > Franz Josef Degenhardt - Befragung eines Kriegsdienstverweigerers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 Additionally, the participation of Germany in the first aggressive wars in Yugoslavia in 1999 and then in Afghanistan from 2001 on (before citizens were told that the Bundeswehr is only a defense army, and would never participate in an aggressive war) lead to a radicalization of another generation against the Bundeswehr - and yes, this generation eagerly listened to the above-mentioned horror stories of the older generations. It is even rumored that this next generation's radicalization against the Bundeswehr indirectly lead to the suspension of the compulsory military service in Germany in 2011.
- fasbiner 11mo ago
  That's certainly some nuance there! I had in mind a more basic concept which due to legal restrictions in Germany maybe make thinking about it as part of German history and a geopolitical conflict likely to naturally reoccur is part of a Denkverbot. But I think you should legally be able to answer if you can think of anything between 1914 and 1945 that is taught to Germans in schools that might cause younger Germans to feel some aversion towards preparing to fight a land war against russia in eastern ukraine? Anything that maybe resulted in the premature deaths of millions of young german men, initially volunteers who were solicited at the secondary school level? Massive political differences and ultimate outcomes aside for each conflict, Germany becoming increasingly militarized has a poor track record when it comes to not getting extremely large numbers of teenage german boys killed in eastern Ukraine.

le-mark 11mo ago

Eighteen year olds in the US have to fill out a “selective services” form. This was for the draft, and continues in case the draft is ever reinstated. So in peace time not problem, in wartime? Different story.

huhkerrf 11mo ago
Correction: Eighteen year old men have to register. Women don't.

m000 11mo ago

The problem here that this probably is only part of a larger society militarization plan. The guaranteed next step is to offer the volunteers a long term paid contract at the end of their term. This would probably be well above what they would be paid elsewhere (young men with no university degree, desperate enough to volunteer in the first place). Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society. What could possibly go wrong?

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
> Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Austria, Brazil, Chile, Mexico and Thailand each have active conscription [1]. The slippery slop you describe is far from inevitable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription
- m000 11mo ago
  You probably have no idea what you're talking about. Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary. It's more of a semi-unpleasant mandatory intermission in your life plans. Also, if you have decades of mandatory conscription then there is no slope to slip. Germany on the other hand is now on a slope, since they regress from a fully professional army back to conscription. How much down they will slip, remains to be seen.
  - JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
    > Mandatory conscription Active != mandatory. > Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary You're seriously arguing that countries with mandatory conscription are less militarised than those with active (but not mandatory) conscription?

anonym29 11mo ago

Has a standing army of angry young men, resentful at their economic circumstances in Germany ever historically caused any problems?